Basic treatment for small home production/mixing room

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Basic treatment for small home production/mixing room

Postby jaku5 » Wed, 2019-Oct-09, 03:08

Hello everyone,

I come here from the John Sayers forum and since Stuart was the only one that I got any feedback on my plan from there and John himself provided the link to this new forum I figured I will move my topic here :)

For start let me just copy some information about the room from my original post and then I will pick up where I am now and post some measurments :D

I am currently in the process of designing my room. Due to budget constraints my plan is to go with basic treatment and hopefully get a useable space to work in. The room is going to be used mainly for production (sound effects and music) and mixing, would be nice to be able to record some voiceovers and maybe acoustic guitar.

CONSTRUCTION DETAILS:

The room is on ground level, floor is strip footing filled with concrete, wall with window on it is an outer wall made from concrete masonry unit and styrofoam (12 concrete, 8 styrofoam, 24 concrete, 45cm total thickness) and other four inner walls are made from brick (25cm thick). Front wall is next to the garage, rear wall is next to a hall connected with kitchen.

The floor surface is roughly 13.5m2 and ceiling is 270 cm high.

ROOM LAYOUT:

I plan to put the desk so that the window is on my right side when mixing in order to place speakers along the longer wall. I’m also considering flipping it so that the window is behind in case this 30cm deep window cavity turns out to compromise symmetry.

The speakers will be Genelec 8030 with 7050 sub. Though I’m aware soffit mounting would probably be best I could do I don’t feel like being able to construct them properly for now and it also might exceed the budget quickly, so instead I hope to reduce the SBIR issues reasonably by placing speakers, on massive stands, tight against 10cm thick panels and a little bit with speaker cabinet construction.

jaku5-room.png


jaku5-room2.png


ISLOATION

I got some measurements done with SPL meter and music playing in the room at 95 dBC reads about 60 dBC in the kitchen and living room next to the room (ambient level there is 35 dbA) and 75 dBC and 70 dBC at the door and window respectively.

At the line of the property it reads about 50 dbC and the local code states max 50 dbA for the day and 40 dbA for the night.

As for noise coming in I measured the exceptionally strong wind and rain few days ago along with loud kitchen equipment running and it showed 60-65 dbC in the room. Probably the biggest issue here is the front door of the house as slamming it gives about 85 dBC in the room and normal operating about 70 dBC, but since it is house structure related I guess it's just something I will have to live with for now, considering small budget.

TREATMENT:

Basic treatment plan is superchunks in three right angle vertical corners (ROCKSONIC SUPER 10CM, 38KG/m3 density, ~78cm across corner), 2 panels on the front wall, behind the monitors, tight against the wall (PT80 80kg/m3, 10 CM), 2 side panels on the first reflection points (TOPROCK SUPER 15 CM 40kg/m3) 10cm gap from the wall, floor to ceiling on the rear wall treatment (TOPROCK SUPER 15 CM 40kg/m3). Hardbacked cloud on the ceiling.

These are the specs provided by manufacturer of PT80 (80kg/m3):

pt80_data.png


Here is the design of treatment in skechup including advice I got from Stuart on John's forum:

jaku5-treatment-rear-2.png


jaku5-treatment-rear-1.png


jaku5-treatment-window.png


jaku5-treatment-front.png


Cloud:

206 cm x 105 cm frame, 2 cm thick MDF/OSB hard backed, angled 15 degrees. Thanks a lot Stuart for providing that ray tracing tool.

jaku5-cloud-raytracing.png


The oroginal plan was as follows:

The plan is as follows

1. Rip out the carpet
2. Do the baseline REW test
3. Superchunks and panels behind speakers
4. REW test
5. Rear wall treatment and side panels
6. REW test
7. Ceiling treatment
8. REW test
9. Door replacement and floor finishing
10. REW test

But now I'm thinking maybe I should take care of isolation and HVAC first so replace the door and stuff the window before any treatment comes in.

Speaking of HVAC I did some calculations:

The general plan would be to divide HVAC in two stages. First make a ventilation system now and then save some money during winter and install the mini split once temperatures start to rise (around March).

The room is ~38 m3 so I would need 228 CMH = 3,8 CMM = 134 CFM of an air flow. 25% of makeup air would then be 57 CMH = 0,95 CMM = 33,5 CFM which should be also enough for two people to be comfortable in the room.

For my ventilation I was planning to go with small HRV unit, 125mm diameter flex duct (which would give me an air velocity of 1,29 m/s) and two silencers (one for intake and one for exhaust) outside the room but after some more thinking I am kind of leaning towards inline fan and making fresh air intake in front and using the existing passive exhaust at the back because this is not huge amount of air and I'm wondering is HRV really worth it in my situation.

Cross-sectional area of silencers would be 16 cm x 16 cm = 256 cm2 (125mm duct CSA = 123 cm2).

jaku5-silencer.png


Registers could then be 170 mm x 300 mm (effective 300cm2) resulting in 0.38 m/s air velocity.

jaku5-silencer2.png


If I calculate that correctly (thanks to Greg on JS for making calculator and sharing his knowledge) the entire ventilation system should give me around 25pa of static pressure which would be about all right for the HRV unit I was considering.

HRV-spec.png


I am yet to calculate my sensible and latent loads to chose right mini-split but I will leave an empty space next to fresh air intake register for the unit.

Original HVAC plan:

jaku5-hvac-overview.png


jaku5-registers.png


jaku5-duct.png


jaku5-duct2.png


Here is my SkechUp file:

Jaku5_cr_design_treatment_hvac_ray5.skp


There is a delay in the speakers shipment, but just to not come to this new place empty handed i took my old Mackies MR5 and did a pre baseline test :D That is stands are lightweight aluminium and carpets is still in place. Anyway here is the REW file, I hope I did it correctly:

Jaku5_pre_baseline_191006.mdat


Thanks a lot for reading :)
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Jakub

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Soundman2020
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Re: Basic treatment for small home production/mixing room

Postby Soundman2020 » Wed, 2019-Oct-09, 20:21

Hi there Jakub! Welcome again! :yahoo: Glad you made it over here... :thu:

Excellent first post, too.

The room is on ground level, floor is strip footing filled with concrete, wall with window on it is an outer wall made from concrete masonry unit and styrofoam (12 concrete, 8 styrofoam, 24 concrete, 45cm total thickness) and other four inner walls are made from brick (25cm thick). Front wall is next to the garage, rear wall is next to a hall connected with kitchen.
That construction should get you decent isolation. Is what you are getting at present, enough for what you need?

The floor surface is roughly 13.5m2 and ceiling is 270 cm high.
Small, but not too bad, and the high ceiling is nice.

I plan to put the desk so that the window is on my right side when mixing in order to place speakers along the longer wall. I’m also considering flipping it so that the window is behind in case this 30cm deep window cavity turns out to compromise symmetry.
I would suggest trying it both ways, setting up as accurately as possible, and using REW to check which way works out best, both for symmetry and also for general room acoustics. The down side of having the window behind you, is that you'll need to cover it up with treatment... the rear wall of any small room always needs a lot of treatment. So from that point of view, it would be better to have the room facing the way you show it now.

The speakers will be Genelec 8030 with 7050 sub.
Nice! That should be a good setup.

Though I’m aware soffit mounting would probably be best I could do I don’t feel like being able to construct them properly for now and it also might exceed the budget quickly,
Have you set a final budget already? Flush-mounting your speakers in soffits really can make a great improvement to the overall acoustics. On the other hand, it does cost money to build them (even if not a lot...), and you could certainly add the in at a later stage, if your budget doesn't allow for that now.

so instead I hope to reduce the SBIR issues reasonably by placing speakers, on massive stands, tight against 10cm thick panels and a little bit with speaker cabinet construction.
What do you have in mind for the "a little bit with speaker cabinet construction"? The rest sounds fine, but I'm curious about that part...

I got some measurements done with SPL meter and music playing in the room at 95 dBC reads about 60 dBC in the kitchen and living room next to the room (ambient level there is 35 dbA) and 75 dBC and 70 dBC at the door and window respectively.

At the line of the property it reads about 50 dbC and the local code states max 50 dbA for the day and 40 dbA for the night
You should be fine, then, because dBC is a lot more sensitive to low frequencies than dBA... thus, what you measured at 50 dBC is actuallly quieter than 50 dBA, by several decibels. How much quieter depends on the music you used for the testing: if it was very bass heavy, and your sub was blasting loudly, then there could be maybe 15 or even 20 dB difference (in other words, your 50 dBC would measure more like 35 dBA), but if there wasn't so much bass in there, then the difference would be less. But still useful.

OK, so it looks like you are fine legally, but what about audibly and "neighborly"? Was it annoying at the property line? OK, so you won't normally be playing at 95 dBC, probably more like 80 for typical mixing, but it's still a good thing to check that, as you might want to boost the levels every now and then to "check the bass", as mix engineers like to say...

I also noted that you are getting about 35 dB isolation inside the house (to the kitchen), which isn't too bad. Is that enough? My guess is that just by sealing the doors and windows better, you should be able to improve that by a few dB. And replacing the door with a solid core door that has a rubber seal all around all four edges, would be even better.

I have to run now, but I'll get back to respond to the rest shortly... I just wanted to get the first part answered while I had a couple of minutes... Stay tuned! :)

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Re: Basic treatment for small home production/mixing room

Postby Soundman2020 » Fri, 2019-Oct-11, 14:29

... continued!

Basic treatment plan is superchunks in three right angle vertical corners (ROCKSONIC SUPER 10CM, 38KG/m3 density, ~78cm across corner), 2 panels on the front wall, behind the monitors, tight against the wall (PT80 80kg/m3, 10 CM), 2 side panels on the first reflection points (TOPROCK SUPER 15 CM 40kg/m3) 10cm gap from the wall, floor to ceiling on the rear wall treatment (TOPROCK SUPER 15 CM 40kg/m3). Hardbacked cloud on the ceiling.
:thu: Looks like a good basic plan, assuming you don't have a symmetry issue with the side walls. You might also need some wood slats to avoid removing too much high end. The panels behind the speakers could also be wider.

These are the specs provided by manufacturer of PT80 (80kg/m3):
That looks pretty good.

You might also find this "freebie" useful: Soundman Simple Dynamic Adjustable Acoustic Absorber Panel Tool for SketchUp You can adjust several parameters to make it fit your needs. Let me know if you like it, and find it useful.

Here is the design of treatment in skechup including advice I got from Stuart on John's forum:
I'm pretty sure that's good advice! :)

206 cm x 105 cm frame, 2 cm thick MDF/OSB hard backed, angled 15 degrees. Thanks a lot Stuart for providing that ray tracing tool.
I'm glad it's useful! That's why I released it: I find of very useful for figuring out angles and reflections. For those who don't know what that is, here's the link: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2

I would suggest boring large holes or slots in the front, rear, and side faces of your cloud. Helps to expose more insulation to the room, and also does a bit of diffusion.

1. Rip out the carpet
2. Do the baseline REW test
3. Superchunks and panels behind speakers
4. REW test
5. Rear wall treatment and side panels
6. REW test
7. Ceiling treatment
8. REW test
9. Door replacement and floor finishing
10. REW test

But now I'm thinking maybe I should take care of isolation and HVAC first so replace the door and stuff the window before any treatment comes in.
Right! Add that as "step number 0" to your list.

Speaking of HVAC I did some calculations:

The general plan would be to divide HVAC in two stages. First make a ventilation system now and then save some money during winter and install the mini split once temperatures start to rise (around March).

The room is ~38 m3 so I would need 228 CMH = 3,8 CMM = 134 CFM of an air flow. 25% of makeup air would then be 57 CMH = 0,95 CMM = 33,5 CFM which should be also enough for two people to be comfortable in the room.
:thu:

For my ventilation I was planning to go with small HRV unit, 125mm diameter flex duct (which would give me an air velocity of 1,29 m/s) and two silencers (one for intake and one for exhaust) outside the room but after some more thinking I am kind of leaning towards inline fan and making fresh air intake in front and using the existing passive exhaust at the back because this is not huge amount of air and I'm wondering is HRV really worth it in my situation.
Do you have large temperature differences between indoors and outdoors, where you live? If the difference is only a few degrees, then it probably isn't worth it. HRVs are only efficient / justifiable when there's a large difference in temperature: say more than around 15 or 20°C. If it gets very cold in winter (less that 0°C most of the time, and/or very hot in winter (over 35°c most days), then yes, an HRV might be a good idea. Otherwise: not so much.

If you go with an in-line fan, then do be careful where you install it: Don't put it inside the wall, between your leaves! You will need access to it for cleaning, maintenance, repairs, replacement, .... So have it some place where you can get easy access to it, without needing to open up big holes in your walls...

There is a delay in the speakers shipment, but just to not come to this new place empty handed i took my old Mackies MR5 and did a pre baseline test :D That is stands are lightweight aluminium and carpets is still in place. Anyway here is the REW file, I hope I did it correctly:

The data is valid, so it looks like you did the testing correctly. There does seem to be a bit of a roll-off above about 1 kHz. That looks like it is probably speaker-related or signal-chain related, not room-acoustics related. Do you have any EQ applied anywhere?

There's also a difference between the left and right channels in symmetry, but it's not huge, and it's mostly in the low end, so that's probably manageable, if you want to keep your room oriented the way you have it. It will be interesting to see the results for the new speakers when they arrive.

Of course, the REW data is pretty ugly (T30 is 1400 ms! Even EDT is nearly 800 ms!!! :shock: ), but that's the way it should be for an empty room. All of your modal stuff is very clear, and several other things too.

Summary: your basic plan looks fine, so I would suggest that you get started on the HVAC part, and the isolation, as well as posting new REW data once your speakers arrive.


- Stuart -

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Re: Basic treatment for small home production/mixing room

Postby jaku5 » Sat, 2019-Oct-12, 07:37

Thanks a lot for taking your time to read and respond :)

Soundman2020 wrote:That construction should get you decent isolation. Is what you are getting at present, enough for what you need?


Apart from the door and window sound leakage I think it is well enough.

I would suggest trying it both ways, setting up as accurately as possible, and using REW to check which way works out best, both for symmetry and also for general room acoustics. The down side of having the window behind you, is that you'll need to cover it up with treatment... the rear wall of any small room always needs a lot of treatment. So from that point of view, it would be better to have the room facing the way you show it now.


All right, will do once speakers arrive.

Have you set a final budget already? Flush-mounting your speakers in soffits really can make a great improvement to the overall acoustics. On the other hand, it does cost money to build them (even if not a lot...), and you could certainly add the in at a later stage, if your budget doesn't allow for that now.


Well the minimum budget is ~1000$, but there might be a possibility to stretch that a bit depending on economic situation and I have to admit that after reading through Jennifer's topic I am giving soffits a second thought :D That being said I didn't realise that adding them at later stage is an option. My understanding was that flush-mounting would make most of my current plan's front treatment useless.

What do you have in mind for the "a little bit with speaker cabinet construction"? The rest sounds fine, but I'm curious about that part...


I remember reading somewhere that whole purpose of this egg-shape Genelec cabinet is to reduce resonance inside speaker, but perhaps it's negligible?

You should be fine, then, because dBC is a lot more sensitive to low frequencies than dBA... thus, what you measured at 50 dBC is actuallly quieter than 50 dBA, by several decibels. How much quieter depends on the music you used for the testing: if it was very bass heavy, and your sub was blasting loudly, then there could be maybe 15 or even 20 dB difference (in other words, your 50 dBC would measure more like 35 dBA), but if there wasn't so much bass in there, then the difference would be less. But still useful.

OK, so it looks like you are fine legally, but what about audibly and "neighborly"? Was it annoying at the property line? OK, so you won't normally be playing at 95 dBC, probably more like 80 for typical mixing, but it's still a good thing to check that, as you might want to boost the levels every now and then to "check the bass", as mix engineers like to say...

I also noted that you are getting about 35 dB isolation inside the house (to the kitchen), which isn't too bad. Is that enough? My guess is that just by sealing the doors and windows better, you should be able to improve that by a few dB. And replacing the door with a solid core door that has a rubber seal all around all four edges, would be even better.


It was hardly audible at the line so I hope sealing window would make it almost inaudible :) As for the inside it could definitely be a bit quieter, but as you say sealing doors and working on lower volume most of time would improve situation and I think this will be enough to make things fine.

Soundman2020 wrote:
:thu: Looks like a good basic plan, assuming you don't have a symmetry issue with the side walls. You might also need some wood slats to avoid removing too much high end. The panels behind the speakers could also be wider.


Noted :!: :D

You might also find this "freebie" useful: Soundman Simple Dynamic Adjustable Acoustic Absorber Panel Tool for SketchUp You can adjust several parameters to make it fit your needs. Let me know if you like it, and find it useful.


Nice, I will give it a try for sure :)

I would suggest boring large holes or slots in the front, rear, and side faces of your cloud. Helps to expose more insulation to the room, and also does a bit of diffusion.


Thanks, makes sense :D

The data is valid, so it looks like you did the testing correctly. There does seem to be a bit of a roll-off above about 1 kHz. That looks like it is probably speaker-related or signal-chain related, not room-acoustics related. Do you have any EQ applied anywhere?


I don't think I had an EQ anywhere but I will investigate this roll-off before posting any new measurements.

There's also a difference between the left and right channels in symmetry, but it's not huge, and it's mostly in the low end, so that's probably manageable, if you want to keep your room oriented the way you have it. It will be interesting to see the results for the new speakers when they arrive.


That is good to hear.

Of course, the REW data is pretty ugly (T30 is 1400 ms! Even EDT is nearly 800 ms!!! :shock: ), but that's the way it should be for an empty room. All of your modal stuff is very clear, and several other things too.


That is kind of good to hear too :D

Summary: your basic plan looks fine, so I would suggest that you get started on the HVAC part, and the isolation, as well as posting new REW data once your speakers arrive.


- Stuart -


Thanks again for taking time to review and comment on it :!: Ok, so I will redesign the HVAC for the inline fan option, look into door design and seals, do some more research on soffits and post a base line test with new speakers :)
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Re: Basic treatment for small home production/mixing room

Postby Soundman2020 » Sat, 2019-Oct-12, 13:51

I have to admit that after reading through Jennifer's topic I am giving soffits a second thought
Yes yes yes! :thu: ! Very much recommended, if you can find the extra budget. Even in small rooms they can give very good improvements.

That being said I didn't realise that adding them at later stage is an option. My understanding was that flush-mounting would make most of my current plan's front treatment useless.
Some of it will need re-purposing, yes, but the rear wall, side walls, and ceiling won't change a lot. And whatever you do on the front wall can be disassembled and re-used for the soffits...

I remember reading somewhere that whole purpose of this egg-shape Genelec cabinet is to reduce resonance inside speaker, but perhaps it's negligible?
That's part of the reason, yes, but a bigger part is "edge diffraction". It works like this...:

For high frequencies, a speaker works mostly like a spotlight, focusing sound in a cone towards the rear of the room. For low frequencies, a speaker acts like an open light bulb, illuminating in all directions equally: it is a "point source". Low frequencies spread out in a sphere around the speaker, highs as a "beam". So, considering those two extremes, obviously there's some point on the spectrum where this changes over from "spotlight" to "point source". There must be one frequency where everything higher is "spotlight cone" and everything lower is "expanding sphere". Yes there is: it's called the "baffle step response" frequency. It's actually not really a single sharp point, but rather the center of a wide range where things change over gradually from "cone" to "sphere". The graph of that looks like this for a typical speaker:

BAFFLE-STEP-RESPONSE-CURVE-TYPICAL.gif
That shows the sound level you would hear when standing directly in front of the speaker, if it was putting out the same power for all frequencies. You can see where things change over from "cone" to "sphere" as a drop in level of 6 dB, and this is logical too: with the "cone" at high frequencies, all of the power heads directly at you, all in front of the speaker, none going back behind the speaker. For the low "sphere", half of the sound wraps around behind the speaker, and only the other half goes forward. So there's a drop of 6 dB (half the power). That curve covers a range of 4 octaves: 2 octaves above the "baffle step" point, and two octaves below.

It's called the "baffle step response" issue for a simple reason: all of this depends on the size of the front baffle of the speaker! The larger the baffle is, the lower the frequency is. For really huge speakers, the step is so low down that it doesn't matter: off the bottom end of the scale. So you could buy a really huge speaker, the size of your entire wall.... or you could take a small speaker and put a bigger baffle around it... by building a soffit ! :) Yup, that's one of the good things that flush-mounting does for you: it eliminates the power imbalance between the lows and highs, so there is no more "baffle step response" problem.

OK, but I still didn't get to edge diffraction... the above is just the introduction stuff that you need to know, so I can explain the edge difration thing, and the egg shape of the Genelecs.

If you think of it like this, it's a but easier to get your head around it: for highs, there a cone of sound, and for lows there's a sphere. So if you use your imagination, you can make a mental picture of a cone that starts out narrow for high frequencies, then gets wider and wider as you work your way down the spectrum... and eventually you get to the point where the cone is 180° wide: it spreads out exactly across the face of the speaker (the "baffle"). If it widens out any more, then the cone has to "wrap around" the sides of the speaker, and start spreading around to the back... and that's exactly what happens at the "Baffle step" frequency. At that point, sounds waves are not just going out in a cone, but they are actually spreading out sideways across the face of the speaker.... but then they reach the edge! And that's a problem. As the wave moves across the face of the speaker, it experiences one level of acoustic impedance, but exactly as it reaches the edge of the front face, there's a sudden big change in impedance, because now there's no more solid surface on one side:; suddenly, it is just air. That "impedance mismatch" messes things up: part of the wave wants to bounce back off that mismatch, and go back the way it came, part wants to carry on going the way it was, and part wants to "go around the corner", and head out backwards. As you can imagine, there's a lot of interference going on between those various parts of the wave beating itself up... which is not good for the sound of the speaker! This is "edge diffraction". Its the mess a wave makes of itself as it reaches the sudden discontinuity at the edge of the front face (baffle). Now, if you put a bevel on the edges of the front face, you reduce the problem. Because then the discontinuity isn't quite so bad: the impedance mismatch is a bit less. So some manufacturers make speakers with canted edges. And if you round off the corners of the front face, you reduce the problem even more, as the transition is a bot smoother. Genelec takes this to extremes, by making the entire cabinet round (or egg shaped), so there are no edges! This minimizes the edge diffraction problem. It is still there, though: just reduced in intensity.

The point where all this happens is at the point where the wavelength of the sound exactly matches the width of the baffle. For all shorter wavelengths (higher frequencies), the wave cannot "wrap around" because it is too small: the cabinet is bigger than the wave, so it just gets projected forward, in that cone. For all longer wavelengths (lower frequencies), the wave is no bigger than the cabinet, and it can wrap around.

This implies that it should be possible to calculate the exact frequency where all of this stuff happens... and yes, there is: As I said, the effect happens over a range of four octaves, and the center point of the that is = 115824/W, where W is the width of the baffle in millimeters. It's that simple. That's the frequency where the wavelength matches the size of the baffle. Thus, for a speaker that is 20cm wide (about 8"), the baffle step would be at 115824 / 200 = 579 Hz. So everything above that is "cone", and everything below that is "sphere", with a transition zone of two octaves each way. If you had a much bigger speaker that is 1m wide (about 39") then it would be at 115 Hz... and if your entire front wall is the "baffle", at say 3m wide, then the frequency is 38 Hz... However, if you soffit mount your speakers properly, then it's not just the front wall... the side walls also become part of the system, to basically there is no more baffle step! :) And since there are no longer any edges, there is also no edge diffraction. And since your speakers are now flush with the wall, there is also no more SBIR. And since you have now loaded the speaker more effectively, it can operate down to lower frequencies... and since it is in the wall, most of your modes are now minimum phase, so you can treat them with EQ... and... and.. and... and... and... There's just so much "good stuff" that a proper flush-mounted speaker soffit does! So many benefits... :)

Thanks again for taking time to review and comment on it Ok, so I will redesign the HVAC for the inline fan option, look into door design and seals, do some more research on soffits and post a base line test with new speakers
Sounds like a good plan to me! :thu:


- Stuart -
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