Home Mix Room Overhaul - DIY Panel Build - w/ REW Charts/3D Sketchup

All about acoustics. This is your new home if you already have a studio or other acoustic space, but it isn't working out for you, sounds bad, and you need to fix it...
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#16

Postby SoWhat » Mon, 2020-Jul-06, 20:44

you can totally hear the reverb from the stairwell


Ah, takes me back to the days of the FIRST portastudio (belonged to a friend; I couldn't afford one). We had to be VERY creative with effects: we used to record reverb in the stairwell, a metal office trashcan, or the bathroom (if the loo was good enough for the pros, we figured it would be good enough for us)!

All the best,

Paul



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endorka
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#17

Postby endorka » Tue, 2020-Jul-07, 07:08

SoWhat wrote:Source of the postAh, takes me back to the days of the FIRST portastudio (belonged to a friend; I couldn't afford one). We had to be VERY creative with effects: we used to record reverb in the stairwell, a metal office trashcan, or the bathroom (if the loo was good enough for the pros, we figured it would be good enough for us)!


These were the days! I still do these things - usually have a "room" mic in the stairwell when recording drums. The bleed into that area gives a reverb that is just absolutely right sometimes. Often it is not, but when it works it is very compelling. Same with elements of the kit re-amped into the bathroom. In a recent very polished sounding mix the bathroom gave a really trashy lofi reverb that worked wonders.

So there you are Trevor. If you're inclined towards this sort of thing maybe you could figure out a way to get a mic into that chimney stack :-)

Cheers!
Jennifer



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#18

Postby SoWhat » Tue, 2020-Jul-07, 10:45

Greetings,

So there you are Trevor. If you're inclined towards this sort of thing maybe you could figure out a way to get a mic into that chimney stack :-)


Don't forget to take it out in late-December...

All the best,

Paul



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#19

Postby shybird » Tue, 2020-Jul-07, 11:27

Thanks again for the great info Jennifer! Really appreciate the effort.

endorka wrote:Source of the post Reason being the asymmetry at the rear of the room caused by the door being right in the corner. The panels will allow you to try out various schemes. I've personally observed sonic irregularities from asymmetrical bass trapping, so my first effort would be to straddle panels across the corner above the door, then mirror the same arrangement on the other side, and see if it is good enough.

That makes total sense in regard to symmetry. I will keep the design for the front half of the room as it is for now. And in the back half I will take out the corner super chunk and just mirror both corners with panels. I will post back here with a potential layout. I know it will be hard to say for sure until we do some more tests with actual treatment in the room.
Since you have an abundance, the panels would be ideal. They'll also allow some trial and error testing.

That makes me feel better! Haha...so I will focus on the superchunks only being in the front two corners and then panels for everything else (at least for now).
Pretty much. There are various approaches to filling superchunks with insulation. For superchunks of these size I'd be inclined to face them with the rigid rockwool and fill behind with far less dense (and cheaper) fluffy insulation.

Gotcha. However, I'm already in the fluffy category I believe. I'm using a 2.5lbs/ft3 Rockwool AFB. It's definitely not rigid and I can get a bundle of 8 - 24"x48"x3" panels for about $62 after tax (in Nashville it's 9.25% :cen: ) and delivery fee from a semi-local company. Sound about right?
For the door, do you have Rod Gervais' book? He has excellent plans for augmenting a standard solid door. Stuart has written on this site on the subject too.

I know I have that thing lying around somewhere! I will find it and report back. I read the whole thing cover to cover but it's been about 8 years now...

I did however make a move on the door though! (photos below) I did some research last night and was finding very little in the price range I was hoping for. However, one person about 30 minutes out was selling a 1 3/4" thick solid wood door at the dimensions I needed for $75 and I ended up getting it for $50. It's VERY heavy and with a good sanding/staining, it will match the antique/vintage vibe of the house perfectly. It does have 2 very small glass windows near the top but I'm happy to cover/seal these if needed to keep the density matching the rest of the door. I'll see if I can apply some of Rod's advice when hanging this thing.
You're spot on about not worrying about having too many panels by the way. I have two slightly smaller rooms than yours, and I initially built something like 40 panels. Some now employed in the second room, on the stairwell landing, as gobos, you name it. I'm still building them as we speak :-)

Again, this makes me feel so relieved! Haha

Cheers!
Trevor
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#20

Postby shybird » Tue, 2020-Jul-07, 11:31

endorka wrote:Source of the post So there you are Trevor. If you're inclined towards this sort of thing maybe you could figure out a way to get a mic into that chimney stack

Yes! That is a great idea hahah. I do love the sound of a random DIY reverb chamber lol. We've always joked about putting a mic in that chimney but I just never got around to it... :P
SoWhat wrote:Source of the post Don't forget to take it out in late-December...

Good point Paul! Haha



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#21

Postby shybird » Tue, 2020-Jul-07, 12:24

Also, I'm having a very hard time sourcing a good fabric at a decent price. I've been to so many stores locally (including Joanns) and the prices have been absurd other than burlap. But after making one test panel with some burlap from Joanns, I was not pleased. The weave is just too loose so you can see the framing behind the fabric. And then there is a space between the fabric and insulation due to the 1x2 framing, which essentially creates a contrasting shadow. First photo below of what I'm talking about.

I then went to look up the burlap fabric that ATS acoustic sells because the panels I have by them look great (second and third photo below)! But, they are pricey so I ordered some small samples of an equal grade weave (10-11oz) from https://burlapfabric.com/colored-burlap/60-inch-colored-burlap?zenid=j69hg9r2imcodjl98tc8bp4035 which ended up being better than Joanns but I'm not confident it won't have the same "see-through" issue.

Could I potentially just staple some of this 2mil black plastic to the inner frame before adding the burlap so that it has a consistent background across the width of the panel? https://www.homedepot.com/p/HUSKY-10-ft-x-100-ft-Black-2-mil-Plastic-Sheeting-RS210-100B/202184042?MERCH=REC-_-Pip_Alternatives_Non_HDhome-_-202184122-_-202184042-_-N

I realize this would reflect the high end a bit but I've also heard that's not a big deal?

OR does anyone have some fabric hookup that my endless research is just not coming across?! :horse: It's been several weeks of searching and so far...nothing has panned out. Looking for something at least 54" wide so that every yard can cover a single panel without too much waste. Somewhere in the $3-5 per yard range would be ideal!!

Thanks again,
Trevor
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#22

Postby Starlight » Wed, 2020-Jul-08, 03:22

shybird wrote:Source of the postCould I potentially just staple some of this 2mil black plastic to the inner frame before adding the burlap so that it has a consistent background across the width of the panel?

Rather than black plastic, how about using polyester batting/wadding/filling (it seems to go by a few names) behind the burlap or whatever textile you choose to use? Dacron is the best-known brand. It is very light, 200g/m2.
.
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endorka
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#23

Postby endorka » Wed, 2020-Jul-08, 05:17

Gotcha. However, I'm already in the fluffy category I believe. I'm using a 2.5lbs/ft3 Rockwool AFB. It's definitely not rigid and I can get a bundle of 8 - 24"x48"x3" panels for about $62 after tax (in Nashville it's 9.25% :cen: ) and delivery fee from a semi-local company. Sound about right?


That Rockwool is slightly less dense than the "standard" fibreglass OC 703 often recommended, and Rockwool describe it as "semi-rigid" so not quite in the fluffy category. Mineral fibre also tends to behave "slightly less dense" than equivalent density of fibreglass, which works in your favour. I think it will work well in traps, but for corner straddlers that wide with air gap you might consider going up to 8" depth.

If you plan to completely fill the superchunks, I've read of people using panels like these, cut intro triangles and stacked on top of each other. But it would get unnecessarily expensive. A quick calculation shows you'd need nearly 3 bundles of 8 for each superchunk. For filled superchunks of the size of your planned ones, apparently you'll get better results from going even less dense. Rolls of the less dense insulation used for loft spaces and filling partition walls is often used for this. I have several waiting in my garage to be deployed for this purpose :-)

I'd still face the superchunks and corner panels with rigid or semi rigid panels even if stuffing them completely with fluffy insulation. Not as much as 8" though. It would help prevent the fluffy bulging through the fabric.

There are a couple of calculators that give some idea of the behaviour of various types of insulation for these purposes;
http://www.acousticmodelling.com/porous.php
http://whealy.com/acoustics/Porous.html

I've used self coloured calico to cover panels and it works well. It doesn't cost much and is pretty hard wearing. Still somewhat translucent though, and the wood frame shows through differently than the insulation, which looks terrible. My solution was to cover the wood frames with silver gaffer tape, and they are pretty much invisible. Looks well good. It's practical for skeleton type frames or 2" deep panels, but would take ages for deeper full frame ones. You could probably get a similar effect from painting the frames to a colour similar to the insulation, which would be much quicker.

Starlight's tip about the extra layer looks pretty handy though. Stuart has also suggested using darker material underneath.

Also, if you are using a non fire rated fabric to cover these, it's a very good idea to spray them with a fire retardant spray of some kind.

Cheers,
Jennifer



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#24

Postby Starlight » Wed, 2020-Jul-08, 05:24

endorka wrote:Source of the post
Also, if you are using a non fire rated fabric to cover these, it's a very good idea to spray them with a fire retardant spray of some kind.
I just wanted to emphasis this paragraph. No one expects their studio to go up in flames but if it does the facing of your acoustic treatment will cover significant enough area that having it resist fire to some extent is really rather essential.



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#25

Postby shybird » Wed, 2020-Jul-08, 15:33

Starlight wrote:Source of the post Rather than black plastic, how about using polyester batting/wadding/filling (it seems to go by a few names) behind the burlap or whatever textile you choose to use?

Is there an acoustical reason behind using this material instead of the thin black plastic? It will cost me WAY more per panel to get this stuff. Seems in the $5 range whereas that plastic will be next to nothing.

endorka wrote:Source of the post That Rockwool is slightly less dense than the "standard" fibreglass OC 703 often recommended, and Rockwool describe it as "semi-rigid" so not quite in the fluffy category. Mineral fibre also tends to behave "slightly less dense" than equivalent density of fibreglass, which works in your favour. I think it will work well in traps, but for corner straddlers that wide with air gap you might consider going up to 8" depth.

Ok great! Thanks for the advice. I will look into the pink fluffy stuff locally and compare prices. Any particular brand or type you recommend for the superchunks?

endorka wrote:Source of the post If you plan to completely fill the superchunks, I've read of people using panels like these, cut intro triangles and stacked on top of each other. But it would get unnecessarily expensive. A quick calculation shows you'd need nearly 3 bundles of 8 for each superchunk. For filled superchunks of the size of your planned ones, apparently you'll get better results from going even less dense. Rolls of the less dense insulation used for loft spaces and filling partition walls is often used for this. I have several waiting in my garage to be deployed for this purpose

Makes sense! And yes I had already done some calculations and each superchunk was going to be in the $200 range for everything.
I've used self coloured calico to cover panels and it works well. It doesn't cost much and is pretty hard wearing. Still somewhat translucent though, and the wood frame shows through differently than the insulation, which looks terrible. My solution was to cover the wood frames with silver gaffer tape, and they are pretty much invisible. Looks well good. It's practical for skeleton type frames or 2" deep panels, but would take ages for deeper full frame ones. You could probably get a similar effect from painting the frames to a colour similar to the insulation, which would be much quicker.

Ok cool I will look into that type of material. Thanks for the recommendation.
Starlight wrote:Source of the post I just wanted to emphasis this paragraph. No one expects their studio to go up in flames but if it does the facing of your acoustic treatment will cover significant enough area that having it resist fire to some extent is really rather essential.

Way ahead of you! :D I bought a big thing of it already to use in a spray bottle.

Really appreciate the help everybody!
Trevor



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#26

Postby endorka » Wed, 2020-Jul-08, 19:12

shybird wrote:Ok great! Thanks for the advice. I will look into the pink fluffy stuff locally and compare prices. Any particular brand or type you recommend for the superchunks?


I've not done enough experimentation with this to determine one brand or another. Maybe others here have some recommendations? The key to this is the airflow resistivity rather than density as such, although there is often a relation between the two. I think there is significant leeway in what will work, as long as you are in the ballpark. The insulation I've bought is "Knauf Insulation Earthwool Combi-Cut Loft Floor Insulation Roll 44 170mm (4.90m²/Roll)". They cost the equivalent of about $15 each, and you'd need a bit less than 3 rolls to fill one of your superchunks.

See if you can find the airflow resistivity of any prospective insulation and plug it into one of these calculators. They are just models, but should give some indication of expected behaviour.

Cheers,
Jennifer



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#27

Postby shybird » Wed, 2020-Jul-08, 19:54

endorka wrote:Source of the post I think there is significant leeway in what will work, as long as you are in the ballpark. The insulation I've bought is "Knauf Insulation Earthwool Combi-Cut Loft Floor Insulation Roll 44 170mm (4.90m²/Roll)". They cost the equivalent of about $15 each, and you'd need a bit less than 3 rolls to fill one of your superchunks.

Ahhh that is extremely helpful! And MUCH cheaper haha. I will make sure to find one with similar ratings to that then. I had done some readings about airflow resistivity and how it was the main thing that affected the acoustical absorption characteristics. Still a little fuzzy on which rating to get for various applications but I feel confident now for this one which is all that matters for now! :D

Also, I’ve played around with those calculators before as well and gotten some interesting feedback at times. I will try with this new air flow rating and see what it comes back with compared to doing the Rockwool I have. It’s significantly cheaper so I’m definitely inclined to got that route.

I think the main question I need answered right now (so I can confirm my fabric order) is whether or not the black plastic I linked to (see below) will be ok (acoustically) to use on the facing of the panels beneath the burlap?

https://www.homedepot.com/p/HUSKY-10-ft-x-100-ft-Black-2-mil-Plastic-Sheeting-RS210-100B/202184042?MERCH=REC-_-Pip_Alternatives_Non_HDhome-_-202184122-_-202184042-_-N

Thanks again!!
Trevor



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#28

Postby endorka » Wed, 2020-Jul-08, 20:14

shybird wrote:I think the main question I need answered right now (so I can confirm my fabric order) is whether or not the black plastic I linked to (see below) will be ok (acoustically) to use on the facing of the panels beneath the burlap?

https://www.homedepot.com/p/HUSKY-10-ft-x-100-ft-Black-2-mil-Plastic-Sheeting-RS210-100B/202184042?MERCH=REC-_-Pip_Alternatives_Non_HDhome-_-202184122-_-202184042-_-N


Please take my answer with a pinch of salt, as I've seen several respected studio designers using similar schemes.

I would not do this for several reasons;

1) Unpredictability. It may be beneficial acoustically. Or it may not. Large areas of broadband absorption can absorb too much high frequencies relative to the lows, and plastic covering will restore those. But would it be the correct amount? If it restored too many highs, it could be too late to fix as the bass traps are already built. My preference would be to address this afterwards with wooden slats or what have you on top of the fabric face of the superchunks. These can be tuned as required.

2) The aforementioned fire hazard. I may be being paranoid, but the thought of all that hot melty stuff dripping from on high gives me the heebie jeebies.

Cheers,
Jennifer



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#29

Postby shybird » Wed, 2020-Jul-08, 20:52

endorka wrote:Source of the post 1) Unpredictability. It may be beneficial acoustically. Or it may not. Large areas of broadband absorption can absorb too much high frequencies relative to the lows, and plastic covering will restore those. But would it be the correct amount? If it restored too many highs, it could be too late to fix as the bass traps are already built. My preference would be to address this afterwards with wooden slats or what have you on top of the fabric face of the superchunks. These can be tuned as required.


Thanks again for the quick and detailed reply. This makes total sense and I would rather not do this as well but I've got to figure out something super cheap and non-transparent to put behind the burlap so that it doesn't show the framing and look cheap (since the burlap is too see-through). I looked up that Calico fabric you mentioned but it is still about $4-5 extra per panel compared to the burlap. And with the amount of fabric I need it's just skyrocketing the price...hence why I'm trying to make the burlap work. :|

endorka wrote:Source of the post 2) The aforementioned fire hazard. I may be being paranoid, but the thought of all that hot melty stuff dripping from on high gives me the heebie jeebies.

I can understand that concern! Well darn I just don't know what to do then! But like you said, I've definitely seen people wrapping their insulation in plastic from the standpoint of reducing fiber flight. I guess I'd just have to be ok with the potential risk.

Anyone else have thoughts on this issue?

Cheers!
Trevor



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#30

Postby Starlight » Thu, 2020-Jul-09, 02:38

shybird wrote:Source of the postIs there an acoustical reason behind using this material instead of the thin black plastic?
There are: polyester batting has a low GFR and will not reflect any high frequencies.

Thin plastic is not wrong if what it does acoustically is what you are wanting.




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