Stand alone “room in a room” studio build ORANGE NSW Australia

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endorka
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Stand alone “room in a room” studio build ORANGE NSW Australia

#61

Postby endorka » Tue, 2022-Dec-13, 20:33

What Glenn said.

Also, I'd recommend having a look at the IR-761 document, which contains laboratory test data of sound attenuation at appropriate frequencies for many different types of wall assemblies. It can be downloaded from here:

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4&p=4&hilit=ir761#p4

Cheers,
Jennifer



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Stand alone “room in a room” studio build ORANGE NSW Australia

#62

Postby gearjunk1e » Thu, 2022-Dec-22, 19:32

Glenn, Jennifer

Thanks - I always appreciate the advice and input

Yes - it all comes down to numbers. Way back, I did build a spreadsheet using the underlying formulas in the reference area and back checked that against the IR-761 and the green glue research Stuart posted in the reference area. I'll dig that spreadsheet out again and run some numbers over the Christmas break and post the results.

As far as I can see there is no research that does precisely what I'm doing:

2 x 16mm drywall (@12.5 kg/m2) on 600mm centres with green glue wedge
200mm gap filled with fluffy
2 x 16mm drywall (@12.5 kg/m2) with green glue wedge

So back testing formulae against real world research is a bit of "best fit"/common sense testing. :geek:

Glenn - I'm not sure that some minimal bleed into the control room from the LR will kill me but I'll flesh out my usage and external setting when I post again

Andrew



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Stand alone “room in a room” studio build ORANGE NSW Australia

#63

Postby gearjunk1e » Fri, 2022-Dec-30, 18:42

Hi everyone

Just looking at door seals - I know there have been some conversations around seals on the reference board under "site built doors..." but wondered if anyone has seen or used Door Seals Australia's DS44 units. :?:

https://doorseals.com.au/wp-content/upl ... A-DS44.pdf ...But the picture looks like
DS44.pdf
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DS44.pdf
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My current plan is to use the John Brandt design - with angle iron inserts around the jamb and e-shaped seals sliding over the angle iron (drop seals on the bottom of course)
angle iron Brandt.pdf
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angle iron Brandt.pdf
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e shape seal.pdf
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e shape seal.pdf
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The DS44 units seem to take a similar approach but in a package - they are closed over the Christmas/NY period so I haven't spoken to them about pricing but thought someone may have looked at these before and had some insights.

Thanks in advance
Andrew



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Stand alone “room in a room” studio build ORANGE NSW Australia

#64

Postby gullfo » Sat, 2022-Dec-31, 15:30

those seals look like they should be ok. that model of metal framing and seal are fairly common across pemco, zero, etc products as well as IAC doors and windows, etc. John's approach with the metal edging looks like a nice way to ensure evenness and maintainability (replacement of the rubber). not sure if there is a matching seal on the door edges but that is often a good way to ensure a proper seal. using metal edging with magnetic seals (like a refrigerator door) is also a good way to ensure all of the seal is making contact.



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Stand alone “room in a room” studio build ORANGE NSW Australia

#65

Postby gearjunk1e » Fri, 2023-Apr-21, 07:45

Referencing back to post #64...

Doors
I’ve settled on the “John Brandt” seals design – I’ve cut the slots for the angle iron in the frame before installing it. My doors for the live room will be ~70mm wider than standard here so I need to add some width.

My door construction plan is to:

• Get the live room door frame in square and plumb (done!) - then add the extra stop bulk and the bank vault stops in situ;
• Widen the door and mortise in the bottom seal before hanging the door; and
• Then hang the widened door and beef up the mass in situ
Re Glenn’s last post, I will assess whether I need seals on the doors as well once I get the closer on and jamb side seals in and tested.

In terms of sway bracing – my engineer has specified 2 elements:
1. A bracing frame that sits directly above the wall frame and runs across from the C25024 beam in the centre of the structure to the C25024 beam on the outside and bolts into the top plate of the wall frame. It is further tied to the first steel ceiling rafter using short LVL plates; and
2. Stiffening the door frame by placing 90mm x 140mm LVL columns either side of the door frame and a 200 x 45mm lintel between them
Sway brace 2.png
I’ve also strengthened the door frame by putting a 70 x 35mm “border’ around the part of the frame that extends out from the timber wall framing. This will beef up the frame to carry the door load and help with sealing the door jamb/frame gap. The 2nd layer of the outer leaf will butt up against the blue timber and I can then add an architrave over the join.
20230421_152354.JPG
The doors will weigh just under 70kgs – I’m using heavy duty hinges (6) – 3 at the top, 2 in the middle and one at the bottom. My door closers are commercial ones rated to 120kgs with adjustable spring strength.

Thanks to Stuart for his article on high isolation doors, Jennifer for documenting her experience beefing up her studio door and frame and Glenn for his helpful hints.

Vapour barrier
I’ve done a fair bit of research on this as climatic conditions in Australia are vastly different from those most of you experience and we live in a very mild part of the country. (The most focussed and concise research I found is linked here https://www.abcb.gov.au/resource/handbook/condensation-buildings-handbook). While there is consideration given here to wall/roof water vapour transfer management, the only mandatory vapour barrier requirements relate to concrete slabs.

In fact, builders here are cautioned against placing vapour barriers on one side of an air gap as

1. The issues faced here in the majority of the country are much less problematic than in colder northern hemisphere climates and
2. The “problem side” swings from one side of the gap to the other depending on seasons. So a vapour barrier on one side may in fact create problems in the “off season”.

The preferred approach is to design cladding and walls to limit air gap temperature variations.

Armed with this, my engineer specified (and I’ve implemented) a permeable vapour wrap between the outer frame and the outer cladding. That, combined with the insulation I placed between the outer drywall skin (suggested by Glenn and Stuart to help dampen any vibration of the outer cladding), should provide a significant reduction in temperature variability at the surface of the outer skin. In addition, I’ve painted the inside of the outer wall as this reduces the diffusion of water vapour through the material.

This solution is considered more robust than a “one side” vapour barrier given the climatic conditions I face.

Next up - HVAC design …



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Stand alone “room in a room” studio build ORANGE NSW Australia

#66

Postby endorka » Mon, 2023-Apr-24, 00:55

Nice. I like the John Brandt door seal method, it will be far easier and quicker to achieve an airtight seal with that than the approach I used.

gearjunk1e wrote:Source of the post

My door construction plan is to:

• Get the live room door frame in square and plumb (done!) - then add the extra stop bulk and the bank vault stops in situ;
• Widen the door and mortise in the bottom seal before hanging the door; and
• Then hang the widened door and beef up the mass in situ


I imagine it will depend on the type of mass you're using to beef up the door, and how you attach it, but I would have found it very tricky indeed to add mass to the door once it was in situ. Once the door was re-hung on the new hinges it only took a few minutes to unscrew the hinges from the door frame with the electric drill driver. With the door lying flat on the studio riser it was fairly simple to align and attach the extra mass. My door was 75 kg, similar to what you have planned, and I didn't notice any additional deflection from the original hung position when the heavier door was reattached.

Top tip: an assistant is useful to help put the heavier door back on the frame :D

I found that adding the bank vault seals after hanging the beefed up door allowed easier fine tuning of the seals to get the even & best compression possible all round the perimeter. You can shift the bank vault seals a millimeter or so here or there easily this way to achieve this before fixing them in place.

Cheers,
Jennifer



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Stand alone “room in a room” studio build ORANGE NSW Australia

#67

Postby gearjunk1e » Mon, 2023-Apr-24, 04:32

Thanks Jennifer - the voice of experience!
I have mostly planned everything around me working solo but it sounds like I might need to get a strong assistant when I rehang - my son owes me countless hours of payback for my time at his place/shop so it looks like payback time :D .
Andrew



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#68

Postby endorka » Mon, 2023-Apr-24, 06:05

Good stuff. If he complains, just play him the "No Charge" song :D

If you are in good shape, with good planing and tools ready in convenient places it would be possible to lift and install the 70kg door yourself. But best avoided if at all possible IMHO.

Cheers,
Jennifer



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#69

Postby endorka » Mon, 2023-Apr-24, 06:28

When I have time to beef up the other door I'll probably do something like this. It will help deal with any inconsistencies, slight door warping etc.

- Hang the beefed up door.
- my case only - first stop is already installed.
- Wait for several days at least for the door to settle.
- your case only - install the first stop.
- Check it is flush around the first stop without the seal on it. Pad out any gaps with the thin hardwood strips as used on the other door stop. I had to get millimeter accuracy due to low tolerance on the gasket; your gasket choice probably has a greater tolerance range so this might not be as necessary. But wouldn't do any harm.
- Once flush, install the gasket on first stop.
- Take some real time to adjust the door closer to optimum setting, pressure, speed.
- Leave everything for a few days to settle again - the door closer can put a lot of force on certain parts of the door.
- Take a note of how much compression you are getting around the first stop gasket, then apply the bank vault stop with gasket already attached to it, trying to get a similar level of compression.

This all depends on you not having deadlines that require the door to be fully finished of course. The door will function as a normal door during this though.



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#70

Postby gullfo » Mon, 2023-Apr-24, 09:49

some notes on doors - one option is a thin steel edge around the 3 sides on the stop to which a magnetic seal (like your refrigerator has) and a drop seal unit on a threshold. the magnetic seal (like IAC uses) allows for some tolerance differences that a pressure seal will be hard to cover - esp over time as things continue to settle. the downside to magnetic seals, if too strong make opening the door harder than it should be. fortunately selecting the right edge metal for a given seal gauss level should tb straightforward and likely part of the overall seal package...



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#71

Postby gullfo » Mon, 2023-Apr-24, 10:07

but if you need a bank vault style door for modeling your rooms:
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#72

Postby endorka » Mon, 2023-Apr-24, 10:50

Wonderful stuff Glenn. With all the precise and heavy work required to build and install these doors you can understand why people who are cash rich but time, labour or skill poor sometimes opt for the very expensive commercial ones that come pre-assembled into the frame with all the seals built in.



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#73

Postby gullfo » Mon, 2023-Apr-24, 17:25

IAC - ~ $12K / door :-) you really gotta wanna have it
exterior grade door w/ seals ~ $2K-3K and a couple of them back to back will provide significant isolation. or if it is fairly flat, adding mass to whatever limits make sense for the frame and hinges.
do it yourself - ~ $1K and less, and then your motivations and skills to do precision work kick in...



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Stand alone “room in a room” studio build ORANGE NSW Australia

#74

Postby gearjunk1e » Tue, 2023-Apr-25, 19:26

Glenn
Nice models!
gullfo wrote:Source of the post some notes on doors - one option is a thin steel edge around the 3 sides on the stop to which a magnetic seal (like your refrigerator has) and a drop seal unit on a threshold. the magnetic seal (like IAC uses) allows for some tolerance differences that a pressure seal will be hard to cover - esp over time as things continue to settle. the downside to magnetic seals, if too strong make opening the door harder than it should be. fortunately selecting the right edge metal for a given seal gauss level should tb straightforward and likely part of the overall seal package...
Magnetic look interesting - good to have some options :thu:

...and DIY...definitely skills and precision. I reckon I will frame the whole of my live room in less time than doing it's door frame and doors - but buying "ready made" is out of budget for me. Most of the time I have the skills and patience for this work - when the patience runs out I go and do a task that requires less and come back fresh with Stuart's tagline in my head :lol:
endorka wrote:Source of the post - Hang the beefed up door.
- my case only - first stop is already installed.
- Wait for several days at least for the door to settle.
- your case only - install the first stop.
- Check it is flush around the first stop without the seal on it. Pad out any gaps with the thin hardwood strips as used on the other door stop. I had to get millimeter accuracy due to low tolerance on the gasket; your gasket choice probably has a greater tolerance range so this might not be as necessary. But wouldn't do any harm.
- Once flush, install the gasket on first stop.
- Take some real time to adjust the door closer to optimum setting, pressure, speed.
- Leave everything for a few days to settle again - the door closer can put a lot of force on certain parts of the door.
- Take a note of how much compression you are getting around the first stop gasket, then apply the bank vault stop with gasket already attached to it, trying to get a similar level of compression
Jennifer - super...v helpful :thu:



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#75

Postby endorka » Wed, 2023-Apr-26, 04:56

Glad to be of help! Another thing I found useful was to actually use the door as it will be used during all this. It gives you a good idea of the best settings for the door closer, and repeated openings and closings will help it settle and give greater consistency of your measurements and gasket adjustments.

The BBC document about door seals Stuart posted recently mentioned something related to this, that standard test practice was to slam the door 10 times after installing the gasket before doing the test. I didn't go that far, but instead set the door closer to very heavy and fast and opened and let it close itself repeatedly.




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