Drum room - back on track !

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UndeadCrow
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Location: Lille - France

Drum room - back on track !

#1

Postby UndeadCrow » Mon, 2021-Oct-25, 07:02

Hello there !

Here I am, back on track for that project I started some years ago on John Sayers forum (RIP :(). It took forever to get it where it is right now, for some reasons, I’ll not explain for those not related with the subject. Got some resources and advices from Stuart back in the day, right time to share it here now, move it forward, and get this done ! And if it helps some other people here, I’ll be the happiest ! :)

About the project :
I’m a drummer and guitarist, and my objective is to build a rehearsal room, to work on my every day practice routine, play with some bandmates regularly and record demos. For the past years I practiced on electronic and quiet stuff, but I can’t stand it anymore.
I’m building it into an outbuilding built right against my house, where there is that room about 11m².
I live in a quiet village in the north of France where neighbors are not really far away, 10 meters from the room for the closest, with his garden right behind the outer wall. It is really important for me to not disturb anyone with my passion and what I want to be my profession. Even if my neighbor said he doesn't care and won’t be pissed off, I know how drums can be annoying when practicing, especially if he wants to relax in his garden on summer days, I can’t ask that much of them. I want to be able to play every day and/or night being sure I won’t be disturbing anyone in the long run.

So, as a drummer I’m loud about 110dB and would like to get 40-50dB max outside the room, so aim for the best isolation I can afford to achieve that goal (with 20k€)

From where I was on John Sayers forum, there are some new improvements. For those who want to start the story from the beginning here you go : http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=20508


About the room :
It’s a square room 3.35*3.38*2.36 (l*w*h in meters). That’s the outer leaf.

Walls :
Are made of 2 old plain brick walls 40cm thick, 1 plain cinder block wall 20cm thick and 1 double hollow cinder block wall, 10 + 15cm thick. There is no more window, I bricked it up, such as another doorway (that room had two).

Floor :
It’s right on the ground, on a new concrete slab I made 20cm thick, decoupled from the walls. I broke the previous one for two reasons : 1. it was too thin to carry the load of the inner leaf (3-5cm thick at some points). 2. I wanted to gain some extra ceiling height so I dug down to get that 20cm thick slab and 12cm extra height. It will stay plain concrete and not covered with anything.

Ceiling :
It’s made of the ancient concrete “slab”, 10cm thick with half a dozen old train tracks as structure, the concrete has been poured in between the tracks. I wanted to beef up that slab with a serious one, so I concreted 20cm more over it. Of course to carry that load I put 4 I shaped metal beams(RSJ ?) 10cm thick with the advice of a structural engineer.

This is where I am now for the room, the inner leaf doesn’t exist yet.

20211007_124051.jpg

20211007_124152.jpg


What is planned for the next steps and weeks :

The inner leaf and doors are the next steps. The carpenter I hired will start installing wood framing and the doors in 3-4 weeks if everything goes well.

Framing and air gap :
The frame will be made of wooden studs and joists (17.5cm*6.3cm called “bastaing” in french). None of them will touch the outer leaf (2.5cm away), they will only repose and be blot on the concrete slab. The air gap between the leaves will be 20cm, filled completely with soft fiberglass 30kg/m3 (2 layers of 10cm thick each). Do you know if less or more dense fiberglass could be as good as 30kg/m3, or rigid better than soft ? (wondering because of some current shortage due to the pandemic… (Rockwool is out of the table))

I don’t know for now if I need a vapor barrier or not, what do you think ?

Inner leaf :
On that frame I’ll use multiple layers of Fermacell boards (made of plaster and cellulose fibers). Those are pretty cheap and dense 1150kg/m3 . They exist in several thicknesses, 10 to 18mm, but the 13mm are more common and cheap. It will be 4 layers of 13mm for 5.2cm thick. Those boards are straight edged, so glued together with specific glue (no mud & tape). With that I’ll achieve some 60kg/m² surface density, for a cost of 8.5€/m²*4 so 34€/m².
I’ll use greenglue (viscoelastic) in the middle of the layers, so 2 boards, greenglue then 2 boards again.

The actual size of the room into the inner leaf will be 2.85*2.88*2.11 (l*w*h in meters)

Doors :
I hired this carpenter to also do and install the doors on the framing and the outer leaf. They will be made of a sandwich of massive oak and lead. Oak for high density wood, and lead to reduce the thickness. So 3 layered oak (3cm), lead board, 3 layered oak (3cm) again for about 6cm thick. There will be 2 seals (3 was not possible they said :().
To close them, we will not drill any hole in there, only fixed door handle and big magnets.

Electrical stuff :
3 separated lines, 1 for the lights 16A, and 2 for outlets 20A. No holes in walls, only external boxes, of course exept for the only cable entry on each leaf, which will not be in front of each other, and caulked. The rest will be apparent through PVC tubes in the room.

Silencers and Hvac :
The 4 silencers box air in an out, 2 for the outer leaf, and 2 for the inner leaf. As they can’t stand in the air gap, they will be right against the walls. They will be made of the same materials as the inner leaf (4 Fermacell Layers + greenglue). The duct will be 80mm in the silencers and 120mm between into the air gap. Supply and return vents will be on opposite walls.
I don’t know yet the size they will be.
For now, I don’t really know how to decouple them from the leaves with getting them airtight anyway.

I’m still searching about hvac to do it the right way, but struggling a little bit, between heating, cooling and providing fresh air and avoiding moisture in such a small room.
I thought about putting a minisplit outside the building, ducted to an unit inside the room, an air exhauster on the air outtake of the room, and nothing but natural air flow on the air intake of the room. But I'm still not sure about this. I called a pro to propose a solution, but it did not inspire me confidence... I’ll call another one hoping he’ll not look at me with such big eyes about the project (don’t know if that’s correct in english tho :))...

Drum Riser :
I did not really dig the subject, but I think I saw a scheme somewhere of wooden framing, OSB/MDF on top, resting on rigid wool/fiberglass.



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endorka
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Drum room - back on track !

#2

Postby endorka » Tue, 2021-Oct-26, 19:12

UndeadCrow wrote:Source of the post
On that frame I’ll use multiple layers of Fermacell boards (made of plaster and cellulose fibers). Those are pretty cheap and dense 1150kg/m3 . They exist in several thicknesses, 10 to 18mm, but the 13mm are more common and cheap. It will be 4 layers of 13mm for 5.2cm thick. Those boards are straight edged, so glued together with specific glue (no mud & tape). With that I’ll achieve some 60kg/m² surface density, for a cost of 8.5€/m²*4 so 34€/m².
I’ll use greenglue (viscoelastic) in the middle of the layers, so 2 boards, greenglue then 2 boards again.


You might be interested in a comment Ted While, one of the original founders of Green Glue, made some time ago on gearslutz;
Ted White wrote:It's worthwhile to note that all things being equal, having three mass layers + 2 thin damping layers (1 tube per sheet) will be more damped than a system with two layers of mass and one thicker damping layer (2 tubes per sheet). Again, assuming same overall system mass and quantity of damping compound.

In light of this it may be worth considering 1 board, greenglue, 1 board, greenglue, 2 boards. Unfortunately I have no measurements of this so the effect cannot be verified! From memory I think 1 tube of greenglue between 2 sheets gives 70% of the benefit of 2 tubes, so it does at least seem plausible that the combined effect of those would be greater than the "100%" achieved by 2 tubes.

Drum Riser :
I did not really dig the subject, but I think I saw a scheme somewhere of wooden framing, OSB/MDF on top, resting on rigid wool/fiberglass.

The biggest benefit of those is to reduce impact noise getting through to a deck type floor. As you are on a concrete slab isolated from the walls, will there be any benefit from it?

Cheers,
Jennifer



UndeadCrow
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Drum room - back on track !

#3

Postby UndeadCrow » Wed, 2021-Oct-27, 13:36

endorka wrote:Source of the postYou might be interested in a comment Ted While, one of the original founders of Green Glue, made some time ago on gearslutz;
Ted White wrote:It's worthwhile to note that all things being equal, having three mass layers + 2 thin damping layers (1 tube per sheet) will be more damped than a system with two layers of mass and one thicker damping layer (2 tubes per sheet). Again, assuming same overall system mass and quantity of damping compound.

In light of this it may be worth considering 1 board, greenglue, 1 board, greenglue, 2 boards. Unfortunately I have no measurements of this so the effect cannot be verified! From memory I think 1 tube of greenglue between 2 sheets gives 70% of the benefit of 2 tubes, so it does at least seem plausible that the combined effect of those would be greater than the "100%" achieved by 2 tubes.


Oh that's an interesting point I didn't know about ! I even could afford the extra greenglue to have 2 thick layers of greenglue if it's worthy enough. If my calculations are correct, I have about 32m² to cover, which is about à bucket of 18.9L of Greenglue (or 24 tubes) for about 400€. It's not a big deal to double that if it means getting extra significant isolation.
I would surely be interested by some ressources on that topic to be sure this is the way to go !

endorka wrote:Source of the postThe biggest benefit of those is to reduce impact noise getting through to a deck type floor. As you are on a concrete slab isolated from the walls, will there be any benefit from it?


You're right. But I don't know if it has been done correctly and if it's actually not touching any parts of the walls (under the resilient tape on the edge of that slab for exemple). Furthermore, the builder I hired for this told me afterward that he put some polystyrene insulation I didn't ask for under the slab. Sadly I could'nt be watching on those steps... I don't know the consequences of that, so I was planning to do that riser "just in case"... But if you all tell me that's useless to do so, I would be happy to spare me this :)

Thanks a lot Jennifer ! :)



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endorka
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Drum room - back on track !

#4

Postby endorka » Thu, 2021-Oct-28, 03:51

We had a bit of discussion on this topic on the forum a while back about green glue and this effect;
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=773

Further down Starlight linked to this document that estimates the performance of a wall with 3 layers of drywall, 2 layers of green glue on one side and 2 layers drywall, 1 green glue on the other;
http://www.greenglue.co.uk/greenGlue-vs ... rywall.pdf

Cheers!
Jennifer



UndeadCrow
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Location: Lille - France

Drum room - back on track !

#5

Postby UndeadCrow » Thu, 2021-Oct-28, 10:54

Indeed, I missed it, that's really interesting ! You convinced me, I'll add an additional layer of greenglue between the two last layers of fermacell drywall. So the sandwich will be, starting from the framing : two layes of drywall, greenglue, 1 layer of drywall, greenglue, and the last layer of drywall.
Thanks again ! :)



UndeadCrow
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Posts: 6
Joined: Sat, 2021-Mar-20, 23:14
Location: Lille - France

Drum room - back on track !

#6

Postby UndeadCrow » Wed, 2022-Mar-02, 13:25

Hello there !

I've got some news, achievements and concerns for you, let's see this with some photos !

I received my 60 Fermacell boards ! Those were really heavy to move (45kg each [~100lb]). With their density of 1150kg/m3 [~71.8lb/ft3], and 13mm thick [0.51in], I have all I need for the 4 layers and achieve 60kg/m² [~12.3lb/ft²] on my innerleaf (15kg/m² each board [~3.1lb/ft²]).

All the innerleaf framing is done, made of bastaings 18*6.5cm [7.09*2.56in] for the walls, and 9*6.5 [3.54*2.56in] for the ceiling (enough to carry 66kg/m² [~13.5lb/ft²][4boards+fiberglass]). The space between the studs (and the joists) is about 33cm [13in]. It's not touching the outerleaf anywhere, only bolt into the slab. The air space between the leaves will be between 20 and 23cm [7.87 and 9.06in] for the walls, 12 and 16 [4.72 and 6.3in] for the ceiling.

I first thought I couldn't put the silencers/baffle boxes into the air gap, but now I'm wondering if it's possible with those 33cm wide, If you have an opinion on this it would be greatly appreciated :)

20211214_152321.jpg


I have now those two beautiful doors. They are custom made of thick massive oak wood, 5cm at the thinnest, with a 2mm [0.08in] layer of lead in the middle. No holes in there. There are 2 seals as you can see. They are heavy and hard to open due to that hole free lock system, but that works and shuts well

20220301_163901.jpg

20220301_164101.jpg

20220301_164031.jpg

20220302_121752.jpg

20220302_121632.jpg


But ! Yes there is a "but" :(... As the seal in the middle of the door is perfectly compressed, the thinner seal doesn't touch the wood at some points, it's really close, 0.5mm away, but doesn't touch or compress, As you can see by zooming here :

20220302_121441.png


After many try, the maker couldn't solve this, unfortunately, and told me it couldn't be better than that...
I said I needed 2 fully working seals, so he proposed to put a new one here :

20220301_164031.png


Originally, I asked for 3 seals but told me he couldn't do that, so we agreed on two. I hope the one he'll add will work fine, be compressed all along, and doesn't mess with the lock system...

Next step, I'll see some HVAC specialist to see how we can handle things, cause I'm a bit lost.
Due to the size of the room (8.5m² [91.5ft²], placement, and other concerns, I just can't do as good as well explained here :Studio HVAC: All about mini-split systems, HRV's and ERV's.
I'm thinking about a mini-split system (called "pompe à chaleur air/air" here), with a condenser inside the room, that will warm and cool the air, and put an "air aerator" outside the room connected to the air intake, and an "air extractor" on the other side wall, outside of the room too, connected to the air outtake. They would be both commanded by the same moisture prob inside the room.

But I'm not very confident about this, about the need and strength of the aerator/extractor, and first of all the insolation of the condenser's pipes... If you have any adapted adivice, or solution to speak with that specialist, that would be tremendous to me.

All the best



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gullfo
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Drum room - back on track !

#7

Postby gullfo » Wed, 2022-Mar-02, 16:00

generally, an ERV (energy recovery ventilator) can be configured for moisture control. much more elaborate (and money) than a simple fan system, but then again, probably not that much compared to damage and mold... depending on the depth of the joists, you could build a silencer into them, and then in your room, have a plenum (usually in the soffits) which provides space (volume) to expand and reduce the overall velocity of the air flow. generally, i make the plenum out of duct board (a product which has duct liner insulation on one side and a hard backing *usually metalized, on the other) cut and folded and taped to fit. then a quiet register to ensure minimal noise.




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