New build small size high isolation project

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Purelythemusic
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New build small size high isolation project

#106

Postby Purelythemusic » Fri, 2020-Mar-06, 19:18

Hi All!

What a weird week! Had my larourer off for 2 out of 4 days and when he was here he still has intense migraines. He has had an MRI so I hope they see a simple cause amd remedy, for his sake mainly : )

I hadn’t realised that Stuart had intended OSB for the first layer of the wall! But I had the Cement board on site and 1/4 of it cut and up. Stuart also suggested (strongly) that the framing round the door needs to be more ridged to withstand the weight of the door and it’s closure. The OSB on the wall would have been better structurally. I ordered the cement board as I was MASS blinkered! It is a bit brittle but I don’t plan in using it for any hanging shelves or anything other than the door and it’s part in the Mezzanine which will strengthen it latterly. I couldn’t find enough of a reason to scrap 9 sheets of Cement board and wait for 9 sheets of OSB when I’m not trying to get as much done before I’m off on another job.

Anyway heres the beefing up of the door framing:

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We also used Sikaflex to adhere the cement board around the frame.

When I was in limbo for a day. I had just received the 2nd silencer dimensions so I made a cutting list from that amd sent it for machining asap! I then ran the cold feed to the end of the corridor for a sink and toilet and ran the waste to the same position. Connected the cold feed in at the house and we have water!

We boarded as high as we could, then got the green glue out sealed all the joins and gaps and green glued some of the second layer staggering joints, using less fixings than the first. It’s slow going as we have to pilot the cement board and counter sink, then drive drywall screws in which ruins the PH2 bits! It feels solid and super solid around the door!

6A0B8013-E92B-47BA-8D2C-08D48DC3145C.jpeg


One more piece to go up then thats all we can do on the wall until the silencers are in. Speaking of which I ordered the Sorbothane from USA as it was 1/3 of the cost even with shipping!!

I have some flexible mesh reinforced thin coat render that will go on the cement board so I plan to get that on as close to the top as possible, early next week then possibly skim it, top coat it like the external render of the building or just paint it. Then I can build the Mezzanine and get all my kit from my mates loft as he’s selling his house!
Later part of next week should be silencer construction then the absolute joy of fitting them : )

I’ve had a friend I used to work with who was short of work come in for a day last week and this week to get the external door on. We special ordered wider leaf hinges, a door closer and finger protectors. The 54mm door blank has been carefully cut to size and hardwood lipping added. Rebate done for the drop seal and the frame scrutinised. It is still nice n square as we installed it and the door needed almost no work 3mm all round! 6 hinges in all.

We’ve decided that when he comes next week we will cut the OSB bond and screw the steel to it then fix a small baton to the bottom of the door and bond and screw the beast in situ. 120kg door! Then we’ll beef up the frame, add some more concrete screws and add the second stop then seals! The seal in the last picture is just and acoustic seal I got from the seal place for low cost... seemed to make sense adding it as the fire door frames have a rebate for intumescent strips anyway.

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Soundman2020
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New build small size high isolation project

#107

Postby Soundman2020 » Fri, 2020-Mar-06, 20:24

Nice progress, Tom!

Purelythemusic wrote:Source of the post Stuart also suggested (strongly) that the framing round the door needs to be more ridged to withstand the weight of the door and it’s closure. ... Anyway heres the beefing up of the door framing:
:thu: Yup. Those doors are gonna be HEAVY. With a capital "H".

We boarded as high as we could, then got the green glue out sealed all the joins and gaps and green glued some of the second layer staggering joints,
Ummmm.... just checking here, but when you talk about putting Green Glue on the joints and gaps, you ARE talking about Green Glue acoustic sealant, right? The one that comes in the orange colored tube, like this?
Green-Glue-sealant.jpg
You are NOT talking about "Green Glue Compound", that comes in the green tube, like this?
Green-Glue-compound.jpg
Those are two very different products, for very different purposes... You can't use Green Glue compound as caulk to seal joints.... and you can't use Green Glue sealant as a damping layer in your wall...


It feels solid and super solid around the door!
Great! With the extra bracing and backing, you should be good there. It looks like you did a pretty good job with all of that.

One more piece to go up then thats all we can do on the wall until the silencers are in.
Are you sure you enough enough space between the framing members up there, to get the smaller silencer boxes in? Also, I thin I did mention in an e-mail that you'll need to modify the framing around where the sleeves come through that wall: the idea is to create a "box" with framing around the sleeve, leaving a gap of maybe 1/2" or so (12mm, +/-), then stuff that gap with insulation. Then you "stagger" the holes in the layers of sheathing: the rear layer (on the studs) has a larger hole, to accommodate the end of the outer layer of the silencer box sleeve (which ends sort of in the middle of that sheathing), then the inner layer of that sleeve continues through a smaller hole in the final layer of sheathing.

In other words: the outer layer of the sleeve stops part way through the rear sheathing sheet, without touching or penetrating the final layer of sheathing, and the inner layer of the sleeve continues on through the sheathing, to the outside world. But the hole in each layer a little larger than it's respective sleeve size (maybe 4 or 5mm), so that there is no physical contact between the sleeve and the sheathing, then caulk those gaps independently. Meaning that you build it one layer at a time: first put up the rear layer of sheathing with the hole for the outer layer of the sleeve, making sure that there's a gap all around that, then caulk the gap abundantly, and wait for the caulk to set up a bit, then put on the second layer of sheathing that has the hole for the inner layer of the sleeve, once again making sure that there is no physical contact, and caulk that too.

Not sure if I'm explaining all of that well: I can do a diagram, to clarify, if you want. And of course, all of that is sealed up tight using the high-flexibility caulk that I mentioned: not with either of the Green Glue products! neither is suitable for this specific application.

Now, some people following your thread might think that this is over-kill just for the HVAC silencers, but your entire build is over-kill! :) You are shooting for very high isolation, so attention to small details like this is critical. Staggering and caulking with high-flexibility caulk and using Sorbothane pads under the boxes is all over-kill, but it does gain you a little bit extra isolation, and every little bit counts in your case.

I think you've been following Jennifer's thread, about all the little things she did in her place, and ended up with a 5 dB improvement in isolation, which she mentions making a very large difference, subjectively: the same applies here... all these "little things" are going to add up to get you closer to your goal of "incredible isolation". You are shooting for around 70 dB isolation, which is a very tall order, but is achievable with the way you are doing it... which is why I'm "going overboard" with all of these measures... to ensure that you get as close to 70 as possible. I know that you already know this: I'm just mentioning it again, for the benefit of others following your thread, who might think that details like this are silly.... in your case, they are not silly: they are part of getting you to your goal.

That's also the reason for the massively heavy silencer boxes that are rather oversized, and have three thick layers of high mass materials in them... They usually don't need to be that big ir that massive of that thick, but in your specific case, they do.
I have some flexible mesh reinforced thin coat render that will go on the cement board so I plan to get that on as close to the top as possible, early next week then possibly skim it, top coat it like the external render of the building or just paint it.
:thu: Sounds good!

I’ve had a friend I used to work with who was short of work come in for a day last week and this week to get the external door on. We special ordered wider leaf hinges, a door closer and finger protectors. The 54mm door blank has been carefully cut to size and hardwood lipping added. Rebate done for the drop seal and the frame scrutinised. It is still nice n square as we installed it and the door needed almost no work 3mm all round! 6 hinges in all. ... Then we’ll beef up the frame, add some more concrete screws and add the second stop then seals!
Looks great! Nice work. Once you get that second layer and all the seals in place, you could actually do your very first isolation test! Set up your best speakers inside the room, put on some thumping bass-heavy contemporary music, crank it up to eleven, get out your sound level meter, and measure inside the room, then outside with the door closed (set the meter to "C" and "slow"). Try to get a level of something like 110 dBC inside the room, for a valid test (wear ear protection!!!!). I'm guessing you should get 40-something dB isolation (transmission loss) with just that door by itself, so probably a level of around 70 dB on the outside.

Your progress is still pretty amazing, Tom! Considering that when you started this thread, a bit more than 4 months ago, all you had was an empty piece of land with a digger sitting on it, and look at it now! Pretty darn good, I'd say.

- Stuart -



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New build small size high isolation project

#108

Postby John Steel » Fri, 2020-Mar-06, 20:31

Very impressive! It's incredible how much work you're getting done in such a short timeline. I'm looking forward to hearing more about those doors in particular.


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New build small size high isolation project

#109

Postby Purelythemusic » Sat, 2020-Mar-07, 06:29

Cheers Guys!

It feels to me like treading water a bit as I’m used to so much quicker on normal building projects. L

I didn’t actually know that there were two different products from green glue! It became apparent trying to use it as a sealant though! We’ll continue using Sikaflex as it’s remained very flexible.

Yea I know we’ll have to add some noggins either side of a stud cut the stud then reinstate either side of the silencer sleeves to get the silencer sleeves in.

Thank you for the explanation of the sleeve fitting like a glove into the cement boarding... the same way you build the sleeves into the silencer boxes themselves. So the sleeves become part of the outer leaf...so is the silencer for the outer leaf! Same with the inner ...Makes perfect sense now!

Yes I truly realise the implications of shooting for such a high goal. But really I want to spend my days with my family and my nights making music and if I couldn’t play drums at night then it wouldn’t be ideal. It is a true luxury to be able to contemplate a build like this. The cost testifies to the challenge of the goal!

After a couple of weeks it will slow down but I think that may be good in a way because the acoustic treatment and room tuning seems like a stop design stop build process!

I really can’t wait! Bit of a way to go to get the Silencers finished and installed but I’m confident.

The external door should be complete end of next week...as should the mezzanine so I can get my PA in there for an isolation test as the monitors I have available won’t be able to produce low end like the PA I don’t think... Mackie srm450 active pa or Mackie Hr828 monitors


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New build small size high isolation project

#110

Postby Soundman2020 » Sat, 2020-Mar-07, 13:29

Purelythemusic wrote:Source of the post I’m used to so much quicker on normal building projects.
Right! But studios are very different from normal building projects. Contractors, building material suppliers, architects, and tradesmen often assume that building a studio is the same as building a house, office, shop, school, or most other "normal" structures, and proceed accordingly, but studios are a bit different. First-time studio builders often run into problems with contractors who think they get it, but don't. I'm not sure if you are following Howie's build (http://digistar.cl/Forum/viewtopic.php?t=54): he's already hit several such issues with his contractors and suppliers. But he's not alone! This is fairly common among studio builders. And is frustrating! The folks from the regualr building industry think we studio builders must be nuts, with all the "strange" stuff we want them to do: they just don't get it.... Because: "We've always done it our way before, and it always worked before!".... Sigh! :roll: Good isolation and good acoustics are not in their field of comprehension, it seems. They want to do things the easy way, not the right way.

There's lots of stuff that needs to be done differently, with most of that being related to the issue of isolation. In your case, even more so, since your isolation goals are so high, but even for a more modest studio, it is still a different process from typical construction. I try to warn people about this all the time, and perhaps some people think I'm just being hard-assed and silly about it, but there's sound, solid, logical reasoning behind my hard-assed silliness! :)

For example: sealing up tiny gaps. A typical construction workmen wouldn't even bother checking for gaps under the sole plates of a wall or around the edges of a wall, and even if he did notice one he wouldn't care. But that gap could cost the entire isolation of the complete wall! Here's one of my favorite scary graphs:
loss-through-tiny-cracks-and-reduction-effect-of-small-gaps-on-TL.jpg
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It's not very clear (I do need to go find the original again, and scan it at higher resolution), but you can just make out the numbers. What that shows, is how much isolation you lose from having a tiny crack, gap, or hole in a wall. The X axis (across the page) shows the isolation that you expected if the wall has no gaps, and the Y axis (vertical) shows what you actually get. So the very top curve on there says that if you have a gap equivalent to just 0.01% of the entire wall surface area, and you were expecting 50 dB isolation for that wall, you actually only get 40 dB. To put that in real terms: If the wall is ten feet long and ten feet high, that's 100 square feet. 0.01% would therefore be 1/100th of a square foot, or 1.4 square inches. So if you had a tiny 1/32" gap under your wall (less than 1mm high), under only one third of the length if the entire wall (just three feet long, or about 1m), that would already trash your isolation completely. Dropping from 50 dB isolation to 40 dB means that the wall now blocks TEN TIMES LESS sound, and on things would would be heard TWICE as loud, subjectively. All from a tiny crack that a typical workman wouldn't even notice.

Or electricians: if your electrician comes along, and cuts one single hole in your isolation wall for a light switch, that would be about 10 square inches, which is roughly 0.1% of the wall area: the graph says that you are now down to 30 dB isolation, which means the wall is letting through ONE HUNDRED TIMES more sound than it would have at 50 dB isolation. :shock: Your really expensive studio wall now isolates about the same as a typical ordinary house wall! Add in another light switch and three outlets, you are at 0.5% open area, and you are down to 21 dB isolation. About as good as a thick cardboard box....

To put this ore clearly in real-world terms: Consider that the typical gap around a door, between the door slab and the jamb, is more like 1/8" to 1/16" wide, and 20 feet long (7 feet up each side, 3 feet across top and bottom)... :shock: ... That's 1.5 to 2.5 square FEET of open area,... call it 2 square feet, to make the math simple. That's 2% open area of the entire wall surface, so a single unsealed door in that hypothetical wall would drop your 50 dB isolation down to 17 dB, according to that graph. About the same as a paper bag... :) (OK, I exaggerate just a little, but not by much!)

That brings into perspective the reason why studio doors have triple full-perimeter rubber seals on them, for high isolation...

The effect of tiny gaps and cracks is just one example of how studio construction is rather different from typical construction. There's plenty more...

Once again, I'm not trying to beat up on you Tom! I know that you already know this stuff, very well! I'm just using your thread as an opportunity to mention these things, so others who are following your build can be aware of it. And I do know that your build is generating a lot of interest for a lot of people, because your thread has about 6,500 views so far! So it's a good place to talk about these things.... Sorry if I seem to be battering you, but that's not the case! You already know far more about the pitfalls of construction than most first-time builders. I'm just using your thread as a platform to stand up and yell about some of my pet peeves ... :) :thu:

Purelythemusic wrote:Source of the post I didn’t actually know that there were two different products from green glue! It became apparent trying to use it as a sealant though!
Right! You should try to clean that stuff out from where you attempted to use it as sealant, since it won't ever dry fully: it remains tacky and gooey forever. The surface dries, sort of like with a skin over it, and that skin thickens a bit over time, but it never hardens. So wipe it out with a cloth as well as you can. According to Green Glue, you should: "Take care to remove the Green Glue from unwanted surfaces before it dries. Use 70% Isopropyl Alcohol to clean up Green Glue." It might be too late for that, as it the surface has probably already dried too much: You might need to use a knife to cut it out. After you get it off, then seal those joints and gaps again with the Sikaflex. That Sikaflex F11 stuff is excellent for most acoustic sealing purposes, and quite flexible, but still too hard for sealing around the silencer box sleeves. Sikaflex hardness is listed as 45 durometer Shore A, which is around 80 durometer Shore 00. That's not soft enough. For that specific application, I recommend Dow Corning 790, which is 15 duro Shore A: around 58 duro Shore 00, which is almost exactly the same as the Sorbothane pads. If you can't find the Dow 790, then next best (if you ca find it!) is "Soudaseal FR", rated at 20 duro Shore A (aprox 60 duro Shore 00: identical to Sorbothane 60), then after that any of "Ardex Flex Caulk", "3M 525 Polyurethane Construction Sealant", "Soudal Multibond SMX25", or "Sascho Lexel" are pretty good: all four of them are rated at 25 duro Shore A (aprox 62 duro Shore 00: very similar to Sorbothane 60). Next best is "Sascho Mor-Flexx" at 29 duro Shore A (about 67 Shore 00), then "Sascho Big Stretch" at 32 shore A (around 69 Shore 00). Beyond that, it's getting too hard.

Hopefully, you can find one of those for sealing around the sleeves of the silencer boxes.

Thank you for the explanation of the sleeve fitting like a glove into the cement boarding... the same way you build the sleeves into the silencer boxes themselves. So the sleeves become part of the outer leaf...so is the silencer for the outer leaf! Same with the inner ...Makes perfect sense now!
Right! So it needs some fairly accurate positioning of the silencer box, such that the outer sleeve ends in the right place. That's why I didn't put a dimension on that outer sleeve, as you'll need to measure carefully to the front face of the studs, then add half the thickness of the fiber-cement board: that's how long the outer sleeve needs to be.

What thickness fiber-cement board are you using? I'm guessing it is 8mm?

Yes I truly realise the implications of shooting for such a high goal. But really I want to spend my days with my family and my nights making music and if I couldn’t play drums at night then it wouldn’t be ideal.
I have high confidence that we'll achieve that! Your attention to detail so far bodes well for getting there. The weak points will be the two spots where the fresh air intake duct and the stale air exhaust duct go through the outer wall. Worst case, we might need to add some small silencer boxes for those, but hopefully that won't be necessary.

It is a true luxury to be able to contemplate a build like this. The cost testifies to the challenge of the goal!
:thu: It's a high goal, to be sure, but it is achievable.... just! It's pretty much at the limit of what a home-studio build can hope for. To go significantly higher, you'd need to completely float the inner room, on large springs... (Which would make it REALLY expensive...)

After a couple of weeks it will slow down but I think that may be good in a way because the acoustic treatment and room tuning seems like a stop design stop build process!
Right again! You've done construction before, so you know that getting the shell of a building in place is relative fast, and what takes time is the finishing off... Even more so with acoustics. So taking your time to do the interior is a really smart thing. You might not have noticed Andre's tag-line signature: He is so right about that! In fact, I think he might be a bit of an optimist with just 90%... :)

I can get my PA in there for an isolation test as the monitors I have available won’t be able to produce low end like the PA I don’t think... Mackie srm450 active pa or Mackie Hr828 monitors
Ahh! So you are a Mackie fan, just like me! :) :thu: The SRM450's have the power for the job, but you are right; they don't really go low enough to do justice to a 5-string bass, or the low end of roaring keyboards. I have a pair of their "little brothers", the SRM350's, which I often use for small live events... but along with subs, to fill in the low end. The HR828s are quite a bit better: they go down to 35 Hz, which is fine for the initial testing. Mackie also claims that a pair of them can put out 120 dB SPL, which might be a little optimistic, but they should be able to get to 110 dB just fine, and probably 115 too. So you could use those for the tests (I'm assuming you have the 828 mk-II version, not the original "mk-I"?).

- Stuart -



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New build small size high isolation project

#111

Postby Purelythemusic » Sat, 2020-Mar-07, 16:31

Thanks Stuart, no I’m glad to have all the points reaffirmed here for sure! I’m pretty difficult to offend anyway but I haven’t taken any of the points above as schooling if I knew it, just confirmation which is reassuring!

For everyone whether they’re self building, contracting or otherwise. I knew a fair bit of the work involved and still under estimated the extensiveness. It’s like comparing a flat pack table and chair set to going out, felling a tree, learning how to carve and sitting down and carving a perfect chair.

Ok great, I’ll scrape out the glue which smells remarkably like PVA and inject proper sealant.

Yea I am a Mackie Fan, probably because Dad was! I have his old 828 mk1’s! Also the 16.8bus and the 32.8 bus but they don’t have a place in the studio as I don’t see them being any good for recording compared to the nice mic pre’s.

Great I’ll setup the 828’s when the external door has seals! SPL meter at the ready!


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New build small size high isolation project

#112

Postby Purelythemusic » Sat, 2020-Mar-07, 16:33

Sorry forgot to say, I have been following both Jenifer’s and Howie’s threads... Howie’s not having a good ride with the contractor!

I would like to do this as a job instead of normal building but I don’t think there would be much call for it...not that many of us nutters around I don’t think ; )


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New build small size high isolation project

#113

Postby Purelythemusic » Sat, 2020-Mar-07, 17:02

Soundman2020 wrote:Source of the post What thickness fiber-cement board are you using? I'm guessing it is 8mm?


Umm no 12mm : )

I am aware that I will need to brace the wall to the external masonry...I think I said before the Mezzanine solves the end but the beginning hopefully can be done when all the HVAC bits are in so as not to impede their installation!


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#114

Postby Soundman2020 » Sat, 2020-Mar-07, 17:19

Purelythemusic wrote:Source of the post Umm no 12mm : )
:shock: Wow! You really must be suffering with hauling that stuff around, and up and down ladders! 12mm fiber-cement is HEAVY! That's around 34 kg/m2 surface density. And you are going to put up two layers, so nearly 70 kg/m2 total for the wall... Wow! That's excellent for isolation. Really good. (But back-breaking work, to man-handle it around).

I'm also updating the door design, to take into account the higher density of the walls.... Stay tuned....

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#115

Postby Purelythemusic » Sat, 2020-Mar-07, 18:39

Soundman2020 wrote:Source of the post I'm also updating the door design, to take into account the higher density of the walls.... Stay tuned....


Ah brilliant!

I have ordered 2 x 6 sapele as a started for the frames, then 20mm sapele for the stops... I can change the order on Monday if it’s too thick but I thought 44mm thick would better support the weight!

Yea it’s heavy doing everything with them, having to pilot and sink every screw (75mm for the 2nd sheet) and cutting is lush. Lots of PPE!


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New build small size high isolation project

#116

Postby Purelythemusic » Wed, 2020-Mar-11, 17:07

Hi All,

Quick mid week update... finished the cement boarding where we could, rendered it yesterday despite being on my todd:

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Then did my beloved Mezzanine today!

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E440E638-EF9D-4147-B481-AC7EB1F6AD9A.jpeg


MDF turned up today for the silencer boxes so we’ll be on that tomorrow!
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#117

Postby Purelythemusic » Thu, 2020-Mar-12, 21:06

Hi All,

Got a couple of us on the silencers today and get the frames mostly made up. Just duct lining to do tomorrow pretty much!

I’m planning to leave the sleeves off until they’re in situ as it’ll be much easier to manuveur them and easy to fix them on after they’re positioned. Just need the Sorbothane, ducting, connectors and a fair bit of patience and perseverance.

We had some worryingly high tides today and my door colleague is in tomorrow so we’ll prioritise getting the door done and hopefully the seals will provide flood protection. I think I’ll come up with a crude flood barrier in addition.

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New build small size high isolation project

#118

Postby Starlight » Fri, 2020-Mar-13, 03:31

That is excellent work on the baffle boxes, Tom.

Does being in the flood plain mean you will have to make sure that you leave as little equipment as possible at a low level in the finished studio?



Purelythemusic
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Posts: 112
Joined: Sat, 2019-Oct-12, 18:39
Location: England - Bristol

New build small size high isolation project

#119

Postby Purelythemusic » Fri, 2020-Mar-13, 19:08

Starlight wrote:Source of the post That is excellent work on the baffle boxes, Tom.

Does being in the flood plain mean you will have to make sure that you leave as little equipment as possible at a low level in the finished studio?



Thanks!

It’s not a current plan to have as much kit at height as I’m planning on stopping the water getting in the whole building...luckily just one opening...the external door.

Having said that, the main power feed terminates well above any expected flood level and the power feed to the studio is likewise fairly high. In the event if a flood I’d shut the power off from the house and cross my fingers.

We got the steel on the door, beefed up the frame by screwing amd glueing 2x2 Sapele to the existing frame for additional fixing points and for the additional door stops. Also the drop seal fitted well. Just need to fit the seals, final fixing and stops (not in that order, oh amd the door closer. I think I’ll paint it white when the weather’s nice. I’ll look into flood barriers to go in front of the door but I’m fairly confident that we’ll have two sets of seals that are used in flood doors commercially and the door is massive amd stiff enough to take the weight of the water.

I ordered the steel 5mm smaller than the aperture of the door frame, cut the OSB to the same size and we offered up the OSB amd tested the closing action then drew a pencil mark so it was installed the same when the steel was on it. We used the sikaflex ebt+ to bond the 4mm steel to the OSB, then drilled clearance holes through the steel back through the OSB so that we could drive screws through immediately when it was in the right place. We used the Sikaflex to bond the other side of the steel to the door, offered it up, tweaked and fixed.

It seems to work very well!

Made the Sleeves for the large silencer boxes and just about had time to start duct lining. Back on it on Tuesday!

Seem to be having trouble uploading the pictures will try later!


- Success in music is being able to make music whatever your situation -

Purelythemusic
Full Member
Posts: 112
Joined: Sat, 2019-Oct-12, 18:39
Location: England - Bristol

New build small size high isolation project

#120

Postby Purelythemusic » Sat, 2020-Mar-14, 18:17

Weird it keeps coming up with an error on all my pictures...


- Success in music is being able to make music whatever your situation -


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