New Control Room in Italy

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lostandfound
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Location: ITALY- Bergamo

New Control Room in Italy

#1

Postby lostandfound » Sun, 2020-Jun-28, 12:42

Hi everyone.

This is my first post here and honestly, it is also the first time that I officially start a thread where i will deal with those who will have the pleasure of doing it as well as with Stuart whom I thank for the opportunity that he gives us in this forum.

My name is Lucio, i live in northern Italy and must necessarily let you know that it is really difficult for me to write in English, I am fairly good at reading, especially technical, but Google supports me on write.
I therefore ask you to have clemency with my probable errors, correct me if it will be possible. :oops:

I read and followed numerous posts in various forums where acoustics for recording studios are discussed, in particular that of John Sayers where I had the opportunity to evaluate the competence and availability of Stuart to always actively participate in giving advice and reply in very exhaustive way with posts that will often have engaged him for hours .... no one else has been so generous in that forum.

But .... let's get to the point, me and a friend of mine are sharing a nice situation (at least in terms of enthusiasm) that appeared to us last year .... We were in the situation of having to leave our previous situation with the recording studio, a situation that is certainly not ideal for recording and mixing but .... at zero management costs!
Everything worked for a few years but inevitably ... ended!
Our friends had started an ambitious project, 400 square meters of structure for exclusive musical use, 4 rehearsal rooms, a live room, a large "events" room and 2 control rooms, the largest of which will be the subject of this thread .
I asked Stuart about his availability in considering being able to support us in the layout, I must say that his availability was truly sincere, we have no financial resources to support such an ambitious project but we would like to be able to do our best by working personally and subtracting time from our work that gives us food .... which is not this.
Maybe I go a little further .... I just want to put those who, like us, find themselves in a similar situation, find themselves having to consult an acoustic designer .... it's a real delusion !! My friend asked at least 4 acoustic designers about this project ..... everyone was wary of undertaking DIY solutions, and although I can personally believe that there are very incomprehensible variables in acoustics and that experience dictates the rules .... I totally disagree with these positions, interacting with the designer is fundamental !! but our implication cannot be reduced to a mere executive work !!
Even if for the rest of our lives we will probably no longer need to build other recording studios or control rooms .... it is essential to understand something more and learn from the mistakes !! this is growth !! I must necessarily reiterate that Stuart is the only one who is much more sensitive in this sense.
It is absolutely right for a professional to ask for adequate compensation for his work, it is also important that the professional humanly consider having to deal with people who have a strong hobby in this scope and it is not fair to speculate.
Everyone draws their own judgments..... comments are welcome!
So, let's talk about things more related to what we have in common ..... our future control room was originally of dimensions:

L 8.05mt
W 5.20mt
H 3.44mt

We realized that we lacked the space to have a small storage for microphones, cables and anything else and proposed to Stuart hypothetical new definitive measures for the control room, being able to create a partition (with drywall) in the length bringing the room to L 6.30mt.

Obviously we documented ourselves in finding and proposing a measure that would at least meet the basic requirements about Bolt/Sepmeyer/etc compliance and Stuart confirmed our choice but he still found it interesting to be able to evaluate a measurement with REW before making the new wall that would reduce the length.

What I am attaching are the measures before and after the construction of the wall, I am not able to understand the differences well but I think Stuart will benefit from his precious comments. I also attach some photos of the room which has a rather large window on the right and a window towards the live room on the left side.
On Stuart's advice, we proceeded to create the entrance door centrally, the original entrance door was completely moved to the left on the rear wall.....
The actual and definitive measure of the room length is now 6.30mt.
This room will host an 5.1 analog console and a 5.1 speaker system(Focal) on the advice that Stuart will give us ..... I know that the solution for which we have asked for his help is not the simplest, despite this Stuart sent me his pleasure in sharing our experience in this forum and this .... makes us really more motivated :yahoo:

So....attached you can see the two measurements made with rew before and after the construction of the new partition which from 8.05mt in length has been reduced to 6.30m.
I really hope this thread can represent a reason for discussion or deepening for all of you, I really want to believe that the shared growth in this matter creates the opportunity to better understand the problems to be faced and understand when it is really the case to consult a real professional in acoustics. I will accept any kind of criticism, I am not a Stuart endorser ... be clear !!
I believe that the reasons that led me to contact him is sufficiently clear, I will not reply in any way to anyone who wants to feed intentions that do not fall within the technical merit, I have already read too many useless posts in the past (luckily not here) that no other purpose had if not that of deviating or syndicating affirmations .... I ask only to argue correctly and contextually. A sincere hug to everyone, even just for sharing my hobby.


All the best,

Lucio
CR A 24-5-2020 2.mdat
(5.1 MiB) Downloaded 3 times
CR A 24-5-2020 2.mdat
(5.1 MiB) Downloaded 3 times
CR A 24-5-2020 2.mdat
(5.1 MiB) Downloaded 3 times
CR A 24-5-2020 2.mdat
(5.1 MiB) Downloaded 3 times



lostandfound
New Member
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu, 2020-Jan-02, 10:10
Location: ITALY- Bergamo

New Control Room in Italy

#2

Postby lostandfound » Mon, 2020-Jun-29, 15:32

Originary rear wall.jpeg
Rear wall, 8.05mt total length room
Windows vs front wall.jpeg
Window dx side
window vs live room.jpeg
windows vs live room
Door vs front wall.jpeg
View from original door



lostandfound
New Member
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu, 2020-Jan-02, 10:10
Location: ITALY- Bergamo

New Control Room in Italy

#3

Postby lostandfound » Mon, 2020-Jun-29, 15:37

IMG_6019.jpeg
New partition (wall) with centred door, view from front wall, actual room length 6.30mt, dx side
IMG_6018.jpeg
sx side



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Soundman2020
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New Control Room in Italy

#4

Postby Soundman2020 » Tue, 2020-Jun-30, 15:41

Welcome to the forum Lucio! It's great to see that you started your thread!

As soon as I can, I'll add some of those REW graphs, to show some of the effects you mentioned.. as well as the typical response of an empty room!

and must necessarily let you know that it is really difficult for me to write in English, I am fairly good at reading, especially technical, but Google supports me on writ
Your English is just fine! It is WAY better than my Italian, that's for sure! :) So no problem at all.

My friend asked at least 4 acoustic designers about this project ..... everyone was wary of undertaking DIY solutions, and although I can personally believe that there are very incomprehensible variables in acoustics and that experience dictates the rules .... I totally disagree with these positions, interacting with the designer is fundamental !! but our implication cannot be reduced to a mere executive work !!
Unfortunately, your experience here is rather common. And your comments are very true! It is VERY possible for a musician, mix engineer, or pretty much anybody else with common sense and basic DIY skills, to build a studio. The important part is to get the acoustic design right. The actual building process is similar to any other home DIY project, with some differences that can be explained easily.

I don't understand why some studio designers are totally against DIY: it can work very well, and indeed if you look around this forum you'll see that it DOES work very well! Plenty of threads here that demonstrate that. And while I really do enjoy working on complicated designs for large facilities, I also want to do designs for "the little guy": Why should people with smaller spaces and limited budgets have to just give up and go home? There is NOT reason for that! I know that some designers will not even consider doing anything for a room that is smaller than a certain size (often, the minimum is very large!), and will not even consider doing anything for they DIY builder: I don't understand that. Perhaps it is because it is dead easy to design for a very large room? :) So they only want to design for rooms where the outcome is guaranteed to be good, just with minimal treatment, then they can bask in their own success.... 8-) The REAL challenge with studio design, is in small rooms, not big rooms. Big rooms are easy: small rooms are hard. The smaller it is, the harder it is. So maybe that's why those designers do not want to be involved in small rooms.... Afraid of failure, maybe? Or afraid of complexity? :) Or maybe they just don't want to take on any project that won't put big numbers in their bank account... :shock:

Anyway, that's not the way I see things: Even in a small room, and even with DIY building, it is VERY possible to get good results, and make the room usable. As long as the studio builder understands the limitations imposed by the size. There are ways, techniques, methods, and a process for treating small rooms, and the results can be very, very usable. I have designed treatment for rooms as small as about 10m2 (about 110 ft2), and the owners have been very happy with the outcome.

Sorry for the rant on your thread, Lucio, but it does anger me a bit that some designers won't even consider small studios with limited budgets!

Even if for the rest of our lives we will probably no longer need to build other recording studios or control rooms .... it is essential to understand something more and learn from the mistakes !! this is growth !! I must necessarily reiterate that Stuart is the only one who is much more sensitive in this sense
:oops: Thanks for the kind words, Lucio. Perhaps the reason I care more about small studios and limited budget, is because that's where I come from! Many years ago, I had to work in situations like that, so I do know what it is like. So I'm happy to work on small projects, as well as big ones.

our future control room was originally of dimensions:
L 8.05mt
W 5.20mt
H 3.44mt

We realized that we lacked the space to have a small storage for microphones, cables and anything else and proposed to Stuart hypothetical new definitive measures for the control room, being able to create a partition (with drywall) in the length bringing the room to L 6.30mt.
Right! And we get back to the same point as above here: The larger room would have been better, acoustically, but there is also a real, valid, important need for a studio to have storage space. So it's a trade-off here: you guys NEED that space for storing things, and there is nowhere else you could do that, so making the room smaller was an acceptable compromise. The smaller room is still very usable. I'll post the REW graphs that we got from the measurements in the big version and the small version of the room, so people can see the very real effect of modal response, and how it is directly related to room dimensions.

On Stuart's advice, we proceeded to create the entrance door centrally, the original entrance door was completely moved to the left on the rear wall.....
Right! The rear wall of any control room is, by far, the most important. And therefore it needs the most treatment. The critical parts of that wall, are the corners: that's the best location for deep bass absorption, which all small rooms need. Having the door near one corner would have used up the most valuable part of the room: moving that door to the middle of the wall means that both corners are now free for bass trapping. It also improves room symmetry a bit, and provides for better access paths into the room as well. Yes, having a large flat reflective surface on the back wall is not ideal, but there are ways of dealing with that... :)

This room will host an 5.1 analog console and a 5.1 speaker system(Focal) on the advice that Stuart will give us .....
Ahh yes... the multi-channel issue! This is important to mention: The acoustic design for a 5.1 room is very different from the acoustic design for a 2.1 room, for a very simple reason: with surround systems (5.1, 7.1, etc.) there are speakers at the back of the room, facing forwards... directly at the hard, solid, large, reflective surfaces at the front of the room! And therefore potentially sending strong specular reflections to the mix position, which would mess up the engineer's perception of direction, space, and frequency (because: psycho-acoustics... it's complex). So, the room has to be designed differently, to deal with that.

This is very important for others who think they might want to do 5.1 work at some point in the future, but will only do ordinary stereo 2.1 work initially: You can do 2.1 mixing in a 5.1 room with no problem... but you WILL have problems if you try to do 5.1 mixing in a 2.1 room. Thus, design your room for 5.1, even if you only plan to use it for 2.1 initially. Surround sound is a different animal.

So, in Lucio's case, the room will be designed for 5.1, and he will be using at as 5.1 right from the start.

I really hope this thread can represent a reason for discussion or deepening for all of you, I really want to believe that the shared growth in this matter creates the opportunity to better understand the problems to be faced ....
:thu: Absolutely! That's what the forum is all about: a place to see how the studio design process works, and what can be achieved... even with DIY!

I have already read too many useless posts in the past (luckily not here) that no other purpose had if not that of deviating or syndicating affirmations .... I ask only to argue correctly and contextually. A sincere hug to everyone, even just for sharing my hobby.
:thu: :thu: :thu: Well said!


- Stuart -



lostandfound
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Posts: 6
Joined: Thu, 2020-Jan-02, 10:10
Location: ITALY- Bergamo

New Control Room in Italy

#5

Postby lostandfound » Thu, 2020-Jul-02, 15:43

Great Stuart .... you always have nice words for all situations.
It will seem trite but ..... it feeds that enthusiasm that we all often need, too many doubts and discomfort we share every day, having a bit of it in one's fondness balances a lot.

We know very well that our "building" will require a lot of effort .... also economically, but to do so by nourishing the goal as well as making ourselves more responsible.

We await your evaluations, always...thank you :inn:


Lucio



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Starlight
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New Control Room in Italy

#6

Postby Starlight » Fri, 2020-Jul-03, 03:49

Hello Lucio. 9 rooms in 400m2 sounds like quite a studio. Yes, it is good news indeed that you have Stuart onboard. I look forward to reading and seeing more as your studio build progresses.




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