Time for treatment

All about acoustics. This is your new home if you already have a studio or other acoustic space, but it isn't working out for you, sounds bad, and you need to fix it...
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howiedrum
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Time for treatment

#16

Postby howiedrum » Mon, 2020-Jul-27, 03:56

please see if you can figure out why your soundcard calibration is off, and also why there is no low end coming out the speakers. In both cases, I suspect some for of EQ is being applied...
Below is the soundcard (USB-XLR adaptor)
USB to XLR.jpeg
I am using a MacBook pro. For the loop back I used a 1/8" to XLR cable in headphone jack (output) and attached it to the XLR to USB adaptor (input) in my computer. The sound preference in my mac was set to the following
Screen Shot 2020-07-26 at 6.57.58 PM.png
Screen Shot 2020-07-26 at 6.58.18 PM.png
I don't see any EQ in this preference. There is EQ options in iTunes and they were set to flat. So I don't think it was the computer. I suspect the USB to XLR adaptor. Here is a photo of the adaptor. The headphone and mix settings were set full left to zero.
IMG_5272.jpg


In regards to no low end coming out of speakers, here is a photo of the settings on the back of the QSC. It is on flat.
IMG_5260.jpg


Hopefully this reveals some error(s) on my part. Otherwise I am at a loss for what to do.

Apart from that, the data looks fine! And it's good to see that you have plenty going on in that room that bodes well for it being a good live room.
Thanks Stuart! This is great news!



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Time for treatment

#17

Postby lostandfound » Mon, 2020-Jul-27, 08:05

Daily lessons Stuart !!

A common mistake is to use all the same type and depth in several places around the room... which usually leaves a "hole" in the spectrum, often around 250 Hz.


I think I made the mistake of putting too much treatment in the side walls (almost of the same thickness and type of broadband trap) .... it would be really interesting to understand how to avoid it. :(
I planned to be able to apply wooden slats later but I don't think they could work at 250 Hz.

Good job Howie !!

Lucio



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howiedrum
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#18

Postby howiedrum » Tue, 2020-Jul-28, 13:47

Hey Stuart,

So I have tried all sorts options on the soundcard calibration and I continue to get the same results or worse. I also can't find any EQ on the computer. So I am thinking I need to try a different soundcard or different computer. Any other ideas?

Thanks,

Howie



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#19

Postby SoWhat » Tue, 2020-Jul-28, 14:27

Greetings Howiedrum,

It might be possible that you need to set the OUTPUT (in System Preferences) to the Pyle, as you already have a USB audio connection via the card.

Also, you might access the EQ available in Garageband. As you might know, you can control all I/O via that program.

All the best,

Paul



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howiedrum
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#20

Postby howiedrum » Tue, 2020-Jul-28, 15:38

Thanks so much Paul. I will try both tonight.

Howie



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#21

Postby Soundman2020 » Tue, 2020-Jul-28, 16:38

howiedrum wrote:Source of the post So I have tried all sorts options on the soundcard calibration and I continue to get the same results or worse. I also can't find any EQ on the computer. So I am thinking I need to try a different soundcard or different computer. Any other ideas?
I can't think of anything else. I'm pretty sure it isn't the K12's causing the low-end roll-off... I suspect the soundcard

Do you have another computer you could try? That would at least help you eliminate the computer and operating system as suspects.

Also, what measurement mic are you using? It's not a mic issue, since it shows up on loopback where all you have is a cable connecting output to input, but for future reference it would be good to know.

- Stuart -



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howiedrum
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#22

Postby howiedrum » Tue, 2020-Jul-28, 22:39

what measurement mic are you using? I


Dayton Audio EMM-6.



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howiedrum
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#23

Postby howiedrum » Wed, 2020-Jul-29, 01:11

Paul,

I think your suggestion of setting the output in OS preferences to Pyle worked. Can someone confirm this?

Thanks,

Howie

Soundcard Calibration 2.mdat
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Soundcard Calibration 2.mdat
(1.59 MiB) Downloaded 26 times



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#24

Postby Soundman2020 » Wed, 2020-Jul-29, 16:03

Not so sure about that, Howie! This is what I'm seeing there now:
REW--Howie--Soundcard-calib--2.png
Maybe it did work, but that's not what a soundcard calibration curve should look like. It should be something like this:
good-soundcard-2-MKCAN.png
That's what a typical one looks like. Almost completely flat, full spectrum.

Maybe you didn't have your cable set up correctly for that new calibration? It goes directly from the output you are using, to the input you are using. Nothing else connected: no speaker, no mic. That's what you need for the soundcard calibration process. What you have above looks more like an actual room acoustic measurement ... (except that it is at -60 dB, and has huge spikes...)


- Stuart -



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howiedrum
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#25

Postby howiedrum » Wed, 2020-Jul-29, 19:26

Thanks Stuart. You're right. I realized after I posted that it was not correct. I tried my original settings on another computer and I got the same results as the one I first posted. So I think it is the Pyle soundcard. So I will pick a Steinberg UR24c digital audio interface from our local music store tomorrow and try again. It is the only brand they have. I will return the PYLE XLR to USB adaptor to Amazon.

Hopefully that will solve it and I can start testing my room etc...



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howiedrum
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#26

Postby howiedrum » Fri, 2020-Jul-31, 21:31

Ok. Third time's a charm. Right? I believe I got the sound card calibrated this time. Please confirm.

Thanks,

Howie

Soundcard Cali 2.mdat
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Soundcard Cali 2.mdat
(1.59 MiB) Downloaded 28 times



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#27

Postby Soundman2020 » Sat, 2020-Aug-01, 12:53

howiedrum wrote:Source of the post Ok. Third time's a charm. Right? I believe I got the sound card calibrated this time. Please confirm.
:yahoo:
Yes!!!! That's great!!!

Time to do some tests...

What was the problem? Was it the Pyle interface, or something else?


- Stuart -



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howiedrum
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#28

Postby howiedrum » Sat, 2020-Aug-01, 14:55

Hi Stuart,

What was the problem? Was it the Pyle interface, or something else?


I am glad you asked and perhaps this information could be added to your instructions. First, I did not have REW checked in the security and privacy preference microphone category. So OS was not giving permission to use microphone/input for REW. Then, I had the mix knob on my interface set in the middle and not all the way on DAW, so monitoring was active, so some of the input signal was being routed to the output. This was disclosed to me by John Mulcahy of AV Nirvana. Those two changes solved my issue. In regards to the PYLE, it comes with really lousy* instructions. It had a mix knob with a picture of a mic and a computer but nothing about input or DAW. It probably would have worked if I had moved it all the way to the right to the computer icon, but not sure. I returned it before I got the Steinberg ur24c.

I started making tests last night. I am going to do a lot and then send them in one file. If you don't mind, I am going to attach one file to see if my speaker is still not producing enough low end. I noticed that the knob on back was set higher than 0dB, so I set it to 0db. not sure if that or the PYLE was the reason for the lack of low end.
Howie Live Room Tests.mdat
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Howie Live Room Tests.mdat
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One question. My guitarist and keyboardist will not be using amps but going directly through the PA speakers when we rehearse. So for them I figured I would set my speaker where the PA speaker would normally be (raised in the corner) and then do some mic tests at a couple locations. Does that sound good?

Thanks again for all you do!

Howie



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howiedrum
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#29

Postby howiedrum » Sun, 2020-Aug-02, 22:08

Hi all,

I just finished my tests. All 39 of them! Since I can only have 30 on one file, there are two files. I did two to three mic placements per instrument and four corner trick measurements.

Howie

8-2-20.mdat
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8-2-20.mdat
(47.69 MiB) Downloaded 24 times
8-2-2020.mdat
(14.31 MiB) Downloaded 26 times
8-2-2020.mdat
(14.31 MiB) Downloaded 26 times



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#30

Postby Soundman2020 » Sun, 2020-Aug-02, 23:38

This was disclosed to me by John Mulcahy of AV Nirvana. Those two changes solved my issue.
John is the guy who wrote REW, so I'm pretty sure that he knows it better than anyone! And glad he helped you figure it out.

I am going to attach one file to see if my speaker is still not producing enough low end.
They still aren't going down very low. I would have expected better from those K12s, but I guess they don't really have the low extension. You could try flipping the LF switch to "deep" (which is how I have the ones set that I use for live sound), and see how that goes. The problem then is that it won't give flat response, but to be honest it's more useful to get good bass out of them, rather than accuracy, for a live room.

I noticed that the knob on back was set higher than 0dB, so I set it to 0db. not sure if that or the PYLE was the reason for the lack of low end.
That's just a gain control on the back of the K12: it cuts or boosts all frequencies equally. Did you re-calibrate REW after you adjusted that? They ideal is to get a level of 86 dBC at the mic position, or at least 80 dBC. The REW manual says 70, but that's not so realistic for studios, where you want to be sure of triggering all possible modes at typical levels.

My guitarist and keyboardist will not be using amps but going directly through the PA speakers when we rehearse. So for them I figured I would set my speaker where the PA speaker would normally be (raised in the corner) and then do some mic tests at a couple locations. Does that sound good?
Sure! For some of the tests, do set up the K12 where you intend to have your PA speakers, and in that case set up the mic where you expect the keyboardist and the guitarist to be when they are playing. But also set the speaker up in various other locations, where you expect to have instruments while tracking.

I just finished my tests. All 39 of them!
:shock: :!: Wow!... OK, I'm downloading those, and I'll take a look tomorrow.... That's a lot of data!

Since I can only have 30 on one file,
Actually you can increase that on the preferences page. Go to the "view" tab, and look for the setting called "Maximum measurements". I have mine set to 99 measurements (as I often need to analyze dozens of measurements in one file), but to get it that high you also need to choose a higher memory allocation when you install REW. It's probably worth setting it to something higher than the basic 30.

- Stuart -




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